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Thread: Should the prog big 5 now consider bands post 70's?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bungalow Bill View Post
    When doesn't it?
    Er, never. That's my point.

    BTW, the big 9 were definitely Secondhand, Gnidrolog, Comus, GGiant, Magma, HCow, Hatfield, AreA and Laura Nyro. Or something like that. Ok, switch Gnidrolog for Dave van Ronk then.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  2. #52
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Don't know about that, Radiohead had a breakthrough with Ok Computer, Muse with Absolution and DCD with Spleen and Ideal that were all early in their careers and pretty proggy
    Mmmhhh!!!... They'd developped an alternative rock or indie pop reputation before going "prog"

    DCD was first a Goth band, if I remember... Personally I find Aion their proggiest

    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    The Big 5 is clearly Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, ELP, Jethro Tull & VDGG, no argument.
    Geeezzzzz, I didn't know I was still contagious last September in Paris... Slow incubatiion, but you're presenting the same acuteness for simple maths as I have for the last 10 years

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    My take on the original 70s big 5, based only on what I was hearing on the radio in the 70s, and listed in order of airplay is:

    Pink Floyd
    Genesis
    Jethro Tull
    Yes
    ELP
    .
    I'd drop Genesis from that list (they only started getting real airplay (and sales) after Gabe left..

    And I'd replace Genesis with Moody Blues, which got loads of airplay and sales, but by 77, it was mostly behind them

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    Tool is often considered a prog fringe band as are TMV from what I understand. You got me on Anglagard though. I forgot about them. Heck Anekdoten would be a good candidate too but for some reason they don't get mentioned that often. Also, I don't think mainstream popularity should be the only factor but also influence(imo).
    Well Tool is indeed up to interpretation as "prog" (I feel they aresomewhat), but TMV is definitely

    As for Anglagard, I'd say they got more influential very slowly... By 2003, they were at the third of fourth pressing of Hybris and Epilog . I still don't believe they sell a lot of albums compaqred to TFK, but their following is incredibly loyal
    (Anekdoten is more second league in terms of influence, IMHO
    Last edited by Trane; 05-27-2014 at 05:37 PM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  3. #53
    I appreciate and understand that Rufus hates Van der Graaf Generator, vis a vis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    I burnt out on... VDGG years ago! Too lighweight with little by the way of challenging & pushing boundaries!!!
    (in a thread where he's bigging up ELP as "challenging")

    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    VDGG=ZILCH, NONE, ZERO ete, etc....
    (in a thread asking to name your top 25 albums by VdGG and a few other prog pillars)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    VDGG where never even big 20. Now if you had listed Focus, Camel, Supertramp etc. that would have been more accurate! !
    I grew up in prog circles & still mix with the same and VDGG are seldom discussed. There might be one VDGG per year here on PE which reflects their importance, popularity& influence!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Any debate usually brings the importance of influence into it but like it or not global sucess & sales is what gives the most clout in any big 5 argument.
    Lets face it bands Like VDGG couldnt sell a bean even in their prime!
    In contrast to what Rufus writes, VdGG are very influential and considered "important" if modern critical assessment is anything to go by (popular magazines/newpapers of the day like Mojo, Uncut, The Wire, etc etc etc and the dreaded professional critics). They actually get quite a bit of coverage and respect for a band that has never had a 'hit'. And they certainly sold more than "a bean, even in their prime." They were at least moderately successful; they played mostly 1,500 seater theaters / auditoriums in Britain and across Europe (more in French Canada, Italy, and France) which, while certainly not the 15 thousand that Yes and ELP played to in the 70's, is still at least a moderately successful level. Britain's 'Daily Express' reported in '76 that the just-released 'Still Life' album had notched up 15,000 in sales in Britain in the first two weeks of release. Not Yes / ELP -like numbers back then, but respectable enough.

    And the array of musicians, writers, movie directors, etc who namecheck them as an influence or as their fave band? Mammoth (please don't make me list them!)

    I think what happens is that there have been times when VdGG is written about or given exposure on the radio and they are held up as an example of where prog got it "right" and then ELP is slagged off as the "wrong" end of things. NPR, National Public Radio here in the States, ran a VdGG special aired all across the country that did exactly this. Probably because VdGG is loved by famous fans who would otherwise not like prog (famous punks, metallers, etc), they get this sort of "hip" thing happening. Even when prog was supposed to be an embarrassment, it was okay in the eyes of hipper-than-thou critics to like VdGG or Crimson because they were "cool." This would naturally make fans of ELP or Yes hate VdGG more than they already might and get a chip on their shoulder, which I totally understand. But one still shouldn't ignore the truth which is... VdGG will never be a household name and will always be a cult band (though not an obscure one) but they have had moderate success, are influential, and are highly respected.

    As far as your Big 5 thread, if you're just going to go by "global success and sales" and not have importance or influence factor into it (fair enough) then just look at the sales figures and list them out for the prog bands. In this case, the thread is a non-starter (it's like saying 'Who won the world series in '45"; there can be no discussion on that, there's just a black and white answer).

  4. #54
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    It's kind of like the top wonders of the ancient world vs the top wonders of the modern world. Now if I were to assign the 7 ancient wonders to 7 of the ancient prog groups (so as to include those groups that are often discussed as the 5th member) I would suggest the following:

    Yes = Mausoleum at Halicarnassus
    Genesis = Hanging Garden of Babylon
    ELP = Lighthouse of Alexandria
    King Crimson = Great Pyramid of Giza
    Jethro Tull = Statue of Zeus at Olympia
    Gentle Giant = Colossus of Rhodes
    Pink Floyd = Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
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  5. #55
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    It's extremely boring having the same people display their ignorance over and over again, and presenting that ignorance as a definitive statement. VDGG were highly influential and highly important and for some to claim otherwise is laughable. Although I have reservations about the way they are represented as the 'hipster prog' band by some here, their music stands up for itself away from that kind of hype.

    It's true that there are a couple of ELP fans around here that resent VDGG and Genesis, who sold less at the time but are more talked about and cited now. Incredibly childish stuff, particularly as I'm an ELP fan as well.

    Some of the newer bands have proven influential within the prog scene, but not outside of that.
    Last edited by JJ88; 05-30-2014 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    It's extremely boring having the same people display their ignorance over and over again, and presenting that ignorance as a definitive statement. VDGG were highly influential and highly important. Although I have reservations about the way they are represented as the 'hipster prog' band [...] Some of the newer bands have proven influential within the prog scene, but not outside of that.
    This is fundamentally the case. On the overall oeuvre of experimental rock music, of which actual progressive (as opposed to most "prog") is only but one denotation, so-called obscure acts have proven far more enduring than the "big" ones that we for whatever reason still enjoy. Early Floyd, Soft Machine, VdGG, KCrimson, even Magma and Henry Cow - and not to mention several krautrock acts such as Can, Neu! and Faust - make for a frame of reference with countless seminal names in modern rock to which the "prog" adherence means little next to nothing.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  7. #57
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    ^Well Genesis too have their share of fans amongst musicians feted by the, ahem, 'hipster' world. Jim O'Rourke and Robert Goddard are two I've seen talk favourably about the Gabriel era.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^Well Genesis too have their share of fans amongst musicians feted by the, ahem, 'hipster' world. Jim O'Rourke and Robert Goddard are two I've seen talk favourably about the Gabriel era.
    True, there's that infamous case of O'Rourke having rearranged "Supper's Ready" for banjo. Here in Norway, for instance, Jaga Jazzist are dedicated Gentle Giant buffs, a number of Rune Grammofon artists mention HCow, Magma and the Canterbury scene etc. - and there are plenty more to check.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  9. #59
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    I don't see how Gabriel era Genesis would have much more "hipster street cred" than YES but that's just my opinion. The hipsters seem to spooge over things like KC, VDGG, TMV and Can and other bands.

  10. #60
    facetious maximus Yves's Avatar
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    There are FIVE big prog bands?! Get outta town!
    "Corn Flakes pissed in. You ranted. Mission accomplished. Thread closed."

    -Cozy 3:16-

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Yves View Post
    There are FIVE big prog bands?! Get outta town!
    Don't forget Fruupp.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  12. #62
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    Funny thread for sure. They usually go that way, so the Big Five is actually 6 or 7, perhaps 8? And Pink Floyd is still one of them?
    And Marillion is also mentioned again and again. Maybe list top 5 of each Decade since the 60's
    ------------------------------------------
    60's
    King Crimson
    Yes
    The Moody Blues
    The Nice
    Jethro Tull
    ---------------------------------
    70's
    ELP
    Gentle Giant
    Yes
    Genesis
    Kansas
    -----------------------------
    80's
    Happy The Man
    Kenso
    Von Zamla and related
    Miriodir
    Tribal Tech (sorry)

    90's
    After Crying
    Anglagard
    Dream Theater
    Isildurs Bane
    Ruins

    2000
    etc, etc, etc..

  13. #63
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJBrady View Post
    60's
    King Crimson
    Yes
    The Moody Blues
    The Nice
    Jethro Tull
    mmmhhh!!!... instead of Tull (whio hadn't really developped their prog side in their first two albums), I'd nominate Procol Harum
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucka001 View Post
    In contrast to what Rufus writes, VdGG are very influential and considered "important" if modern critical assessment is anything to go by (popular magazines/newpapers of the day like Mojo, Uncut, The Wire, etc etc etc and the dreaded professional critics). They actually get quite a bit of coverage and respect for a band that has never had a 'hit'. And they certainly sold more than "a bean, even in their prime." They were at least moderately successful; they played mostly 1,500 seater theaters / auditoriums in Britain and across Europe (more in French Canada, Italy, and France) which, while certainly not the 15 thousand that Yes and ELP played to in the 70's, is still at least a moderately successful level. Britain's 'Daily Express' reported in '76 that the just-released 'Still Life' album had notched up 15,000 in sales in Britain in the first two weeks of release. Not Yes / ELP -like numbers back then, but respectable enough.

    And the array of musicians, writers, movie directors, etc who namecheck them as an influence or as their fave band? Mammoth (please don't make me list them!)

    I think what happens is that there have been times when VdGG is written about or given exposure on the radio and they are held up as an example of where prog got it "right" and then ELP is slagged off as the "wrong" end of things. NPR, National Public Radio here in the States, ran a VdGG special aired all across the country that did exactly this. Probably because VdGG is loved by famous fans who would otherwise not like prog (famous punks, metallers, etc), they get this sort of "hip" thing happening. Even when prog was supposed to be an embarrassment, it was okay in the eyes of hipper-than-thou critics to like VdGG or Crimson because they were "cool." This would naturally make fans of ELP or Yes hate VdGG more than they already might and get a chip on their shoulder, which I totally understand. But one still shouldn't ignore the truth which is... VdGG will never be a household name and will always be a cult band (though not an obscure one) but they have had moderate success, are influential, and are highly respected.

    As far as your Big 5 thread, if you're just going to go by "global success and sales" and not have importance or influence factor into it (fair enough) then just look at the sales figures and list them out for the prog bands. In this case, the thread is a non-starter (it's like saying 'Who won the world series in '45"; there can be no discussion on that, there's just a black and white answer).
    What he said.

    For me Big 5 is a chain of sporting goods stores here in the US.

  15. #65
    Member Haruspex Carnage's Avatar
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    Tool have gone on record lately as being a pop prog metal band...not kidding...or at least Adam Jones seems to refer them as such as he finds most straight-up "prog" bands a bit too much/the listener gets it real quick. This from one of the recent tours' VIP discussions that was uploaded on a site by some fan therein then taken down at the request of the band...i snagged a listen.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by MJBrady View Post

    80's
    Happy The Man
    Kenso
    Von Zamla and related
    Miriodir
    Tribal Tech (sorry)

    90's
    After Crying
    Anglagard
    Dream Theater
    Isildurs Bane
    Ruins

    2000
    etc, etc, etc..
    I haven't even heard of most of these, which probably just goes to show how much prog fell out of favor with the general public in the 80s/90s. (Btw, I'm no expert on HTM -- I had one album decades ago which was pretty good -- but weren't they more a 70s act?)

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Don't forget Fruupp.
    Prefer not to thanks!

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJBrady View Post
    Tribal Tech (sorry)
    Sorry because they're fusion? Don't be. They're one of the most underrated fusion bands ever in my estimation. And because their earlier records were fairly composition intensive, they could be construed as "prog-fusion." At least by me.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Prefer not to thanks!
    Are you, are you truly, truly sure?
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  20. #70
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    60s
    The Moody Blues
    The Nice
    Procol Harum
    Soft Machine
    Frank Zappa

    70s
    Alan Parsons Project
    ELP
    Camel
    Caravan
    Genesis
    Gentle Giant
    Jethro Tull
    King Crimson
    Mike Oldfield
    Pink Floyd
    Rush
    VdGG
    Yes

    80s
    IQ
    Marillion
    Ozric Tentacles
    Pallas
    Pendragon
    Twelfth Night

    90s
    Arena
    Dream Theater
    OSI
    Poisoned Electrick Head
    Porcupine Tree

  21. #71
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    There's no more big 5..., only small 1000's
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

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