"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Mmmhhh!!!... They'd developped an alternative rock or indie pop reputation before going "prog"
DCD was first a Goth band, if I remember... Personally I find Aion their proggiest
Geeezzzzz, I didn't know I was still contagious last September in Paris... Slow incubatiion, but you're presenting the same acuteness for simple maths as I have for the last 10 years
I'd drop Genesis from that list (they only started getting real airplay (and sales) after Gabe left..
And I'd replace Genesis with Moody Blues, which got loads of airplay and sales, but by 77, it was mostly behind them
Well Tool is indeed up to interpretation as "prog" (I feel they aresomewhat), but TMV is definitely
As for Anglagard, I'd say they got more influential very slowly... By 2003, they were at the third of fourth pressing of Hybris and Epilog . I still don't believe they sell a lot of albums compaqred to TFK, but their following is incredibly loyal
(Anekdoten is more second league in terms of influence, IMHO
Last edited by Trane; 05-27-2014 at 05:37 PM.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
I appreciate and understand that Rufus hates Van der Graaf Generator, vis a vis...
(in a thread where he's bigging up ELP as "challenging")
(in a thread asking to name your top 25 albums by VdGG and a few other prog pillars)
In contrast to what Rufus writes, VdGG are very influential and considered "important" if modern critical assessment is anything to go by (popular magazines/newpapers of the day like Mojo, Uncut, The Wire, etc etc etc and the dreaded professional critics). They actually get quite a bit of coverage and respect for a band that has never had a 'hit'. And they certainly sold more than "a bean, even in their prime." They were at least moderately successful; they played mostly 1,500 seater theaters / auditoriums in Britain and across Europe (more in French Canada, Italy, and France) which, while certainly not the 15 thousand that Yes and ELP played to in the 70's, is still at least a moderately successful level. Britain's 'Daily Express' reported in '76 that the just-released 'Still Life' album had notched up 15,000 in sales in Britain in the first two weeks of release. Not Yes / ELP -like numbers back then, but respectable enough.
And the array of musicians, writers, movie directors, etc who namecheck them as an influence or as their fave band? Mammoth (please don't make me list them!)
I think what happens is that there have been times when VdGG is written about or given exposure on the radio and they are held up as an example of where prog got it "right" and then ELP is slagged off as the "wrong" end of things. NPR, National Public Radio here in the States, ran a VdGG special aired all across the country that did exactly this. Probably because VdGG is loved by famous fans who would otherwise not like prog (famous punks, metallers, etc), they get this sort of "hip" thing happening. Even when prog was supposed to be an embarrassment, it was okay in the eyes of hipper-than-thou critics to like VdGG or Crimson because they were "cool." This would naturally make fans of ELP or Yes hate VdGG more than they already might and get a chip on their shoulder, which I totally understand. But one still shouldn't ignore the truth which is... VdGG will never be a household name and will always be a cult band (though not an obscure one) but they have had moderate success, are influential, and are highly respected.
As far as your Big 5 thread, if you're just going to go by "global success and sales" and not have importance or influence factor into it (fair enough) then just look at the sales figures and list them out for the prog bands. In this case, the thread is a non-starter (it's like saying 'Who won the world series in '45"; there can be no discussion on that, there's just a black and white answer).
It's kind of like the top wonders of the ancient world vs the top wonders of the modern world. Now if I were to assign the 7 ancient wonders to 7 of the ancient prog groups (so as to include those groups that are often discussed as the 5th member) I would suggest the following:
Yes = Mausoleum at Halicarnassus
Genesis = Hanging Garden of Babylon
ELP = Lighthouse of Alexandria
King Crimson = Great Pyramid of Giza
Jethro Tull = Statue of Zeus at Olympia
Gentle Giant = Colossus of Rhodes
Pink Floyd = Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A gentleman is defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion, and doesn't.
It's extremely boring having the same people display their ignorance over and over again, and presenting that ignorance as a definitive statement. VDGG were highly influential and highly important and for some to claim otherwise is laughable. Although I have reservations about the way they are represented as the 'hipster prog' band by some here, their music stands up for itself away from that kind of hype.
It's true that there are a couple of ELP fans around here that resent VDGG and Genesis, who sold less at the time but are more talked about and cited now. Incredibly childish stuff, particularly as I'm an ELP fan as well.
Some of the newer bands have proven influential within the prog scene, but not outside of that.
Last edited by JJ88; 05-30-2014 at 02:49 AM.
This is fundamentally the case. On the overall oeuvre of experimental rock music, of which actual progressive (as opposed to most "prog") is only but one denotation, so-called obscure acts have proven far more enduring than the "big" ones that we for whatever reason still enjoy. Early Floyd, Soft Machine, VdGG, KCrimson, even Magma and Henry Cow - and not to mention several krautrock acts such as Can, Neu! and Faust - make for a frame of reference with countless seminal names in modern rock to which the "prog" adherence means little next to nothing.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
^Well Genesis too have their share of fans amongst musicians feted by the, ahem, 'hipster' world. Jim O'Rourke and Robert Goddard are two I've seen talk favourably about the Gabriel era.
True, there's that infamous case of O'Rourke having rearranged "Supper's Ready" for banjo. Here in Norway, for instance, Jaga Jazzist are dedicated Gentle Giant buffs, a number of Rune Grammofon artists mention HCow, Magma and the Canterbury scene etc. - and there are plenty more to check.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I don't see how Gabriel era Genesis would have much more "hipster street cred" than YES but that's just my opinion. The hipsters seem to spooge over things like KC, VDGG, TMV and Can and other bands.
There are FIVE big prog bands?! Get outta town!
"Corn Flakes pissed in. You ranted. Mission accomplished. Thread closed."
-Cozy 3:16-
Funny thread for sure. They usually go that way, so the Big Five is actually 6 or 7, perhaps 8? And Pink Floyd is still one of them?
And Marillion is also mentioned again and again. Maybe list top 5 of each Decade since the 60's
------------------------------------------
60's
King Crimson
Yes
The Moody Blues
The Nice
Jethro Tull
---------------------------------
70's
ELP
Gentle Giant
Yes
Genesis
Kansas
-----------------------------
80's
Happy The Man
Kenso
Von Zamla and related
Miriodir
Tribal Tech (sorry)
90's
After Crying
Anglagard
Dream Theater
Isildurs Bane
Ruins
2000
etc, etc, etc..
Tool have gone on record lately as being a pop prog metal band...not kidding...or at least Adam Jones seems to refer them as such as he finds most straight-up "prog" bands a bit too much/the listener gets it real quick. This from one of the recent tours' VIP discussions that was uploaded on a site by some fan therein then taken down at the request of the band...i snagged a listen.
60s
The Moody Blues
The Nice
Procol Harum
Soft Machine
Frank Zappa
70s
Alan Parsons Project
ELP
Camel
Caravan
Genesis
Gentle Giant
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Mike Oldfield
Pink Floyd
Rush
VdGG
Yes
80s
IQ
Marillion
Ozric Tentacles
Pallas
Pendragon
Twelfth Night
90s
Arena
Dream Theater
OSI
Poisoned Electrick Head
Porcupine Tree
There's no more big 5..., only small 1000's
no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone
Bookmarks