How much do musicians make who didn't make the REALLY BIG TIME?

[rcarlberg]

They knew going in that even if they sold every ticket, which they didn't, they would still not even break even! Didn't they have an accountant to tell them no? Makes no sense.

"Over the top" was the the watchword of that band at that time.

[cavgator]

"Over the top" was the the watchword of that band at that time.

Wasn't just ELP, either. The entire 1970s was overblown...

[strawberrybrick]

Great thread. The one thing that hasn't been mentioned are the ladies.

What do you call a musican without a wife or girlfriend?
Homeless.

[trurl]

[GuitarGeek]

There are stupid, obvious things though. ELP. Why did they do the tour with the orchestra. They knew going in that even if they sold every ticket, which they didn't, they would still not even break even! Sure, it's impressive seeing that enormous crowd in Montreal, but that was not every night. And even if it were, it wouldn't make a difference. A one off concert, or a scaled down orchestra, that could have worked. But they made the brainless decision to go forward. And of course many of those concerts ended up being without the orchestra. A shame i couldn't work out, but it had no chance of financial success. Didn't they have an accountant to tell them no? Makes no sense.

I think one of the big mistakes ELP did with that debacle was actually touring with one orchestra. Because of the musician's union, they could only do so many concerts a week, I think it was something like 3 or 4. So for every day of the tour they couldn't play a show with the orchestra, they were sinking that much further into the red, because they had to still pay the per diem for each orchestra member, plus all the ancillary personnel needed for the orchestra. That plus the orchestra was what, 72 members? Something ridiculously huge.

What they should have done is what other artists have done, including Yes and I believe also The Moody Blues: you hire a different orchestra in each region your playing. For instance, on the Yessymphonic tour, they had one orchestra, comprised of musicians from Ohio, who played in Cleveland and Columbus and I think also Cincinnati. Then when they moved to another area, another orchestra was contracted to play the next two or three shows, and so on. That way, you're only paying the orchestra for the concert dates, plus whatever you have to pay for the rehearsal dates leading up to those shows. And by contracting multiple orchestras, they could book more dates into any given week, thus there's more income coming in to begin with.

And it probably helped that Yes also used smaller orchestras and played smaller venues, as well.

I remember a few years ago, it was announced that California Guitar Trio were playing in some small bar somewhere in the midwest. As I recall it was some small town, the insinuation being that it didn't seem like the kind of place that "progressive" band would book a show. But it was said that the band would have had a day off otherwise, and every day off during a tour, you lose money. So better to book a show where you might at least get dinner and gas money to the next gig at the merchandise table, if not from the gate money.

[rcarlberg]

I remember a few years ago, it was announced that California Guitar Trio were playing in some small bar somewhere in the midwest. As I recall it was some small town, the insinuation being that it didn't seem like the kind of place that "progressive" band would book a show. But it was said that the band would have had a day off otherwise, and every day off during a tour, you lose money. So better to book a show where you might at least get dinner and gas money to the next gig at the merchandise table, if not from the gate money.

I think a lot of bands enjoy getting off the stage once in a while, playing in a small club, bar or restaurant where they can look the paying guests in the eye. Less pressure, more fun, nice change of pace. Maybe they don't make as much money, but in the middle of a tour it's refreshing.

[trurl]

I think one of the big mistakes ELP did with that debacle was actually touring with one orchestra. Because of the musician's union, they could only do so many concerts a week, I think it was something like 3 or 4. So for every day of the tour they couldn't play a show with the orchestra, they were sinking that much further into the red, because they had to still pay the per diem for each orchestra member, plus all the ancillary personnel needed for the orchestra. That plus the orchestra was what, 72 members? Something ridiculously huge.

What they should have done is what other artists have done, including Yes and I believe also The Moody Blues: you hire a different orchestra in each region your playing. For instance, on the Yessymphonic tour, they had one orchestra, comprised of musicians from Ohio, who played in Cleveland and Columbus and I think also Cincinnati. Then when they moved to another area, another orchestra was contracted to play the next two or three shows, and so on. That way, you're only paying the orchestra for the concert dates, plus whatever you have to pay for the rehearsal dates leading up to those shows. And by contracting multiple orchestras, they could book more dates into any given week, thus there's more income coming in to begin with.

Well, we all learned from their fail Yeah it was insanity and I'm sure it was shown to be insanity before ever undertaking it. The only upside is that the ELP orchestra knew the material. There's nothing like seeing the Moody Blues, let alone Yes, with the mighty and majestic Chattanooga Symphony with a bunch of 3rd stringers that still can't play the basic repertoire after 30 years and have had one rehearsal trying to play what they patronizingly think of as "simple rawk and rool" in time. Or with Yes, watch them try and play in 7. Hilarity ensues. The Symphonic show in Atlanta was a borderline disaster and that's a decent symphony.

The orchestra they (Yes) used in Europe and for the DVD killed. Those kids got it. And they did multiple shows and got really tight.

[SteveSly]

That has always amazed me.

There is actually a new documentery on Entwistle that either just came out or is coming out. He bascially continued to live the high flying rock n roll lifesyle until the day he died, but in order to maintain that lifestyle he had to have the money from The Who's touring revenue.

[WytchCrypt]

Don't think anyone's mentioned Derek Shulman. I was watching a documentary called "Metal Evolution" and they interviewed a record company exec and it just happened to be Derek who was identified as the A&R Rep for some record label - with absolutely no mention of being the vocalist for Gentle Giant. I'm sure a job as an A&R man is highly preferable to digging ditches, but I was kind of shocked that he wasn't living the life of a financially independent musician.

[firth5th]

Lifestyles of the somewhat rich and sorta famous.

[GuitarGeek]

I think a lot of bands enjoy getting off the stage once in a while, playing in a small club, bar or restaurant where they can look the paying guests in the eye. Less pressure, more fun, nice change of pace. Maybe they don't make as much money, but in the middle of a tour it's refreshing.

Well, yeah, but I don't that's what we're talking about here. California Guitar Trio don't play particularly large venues to begin with, I don't imagine. I distinctly remember it being said in this case that they really can't afford to "take a night off" during a tour, so it's better to play a show that might at least generate some money, maybe sell a few CD's at the merchandise table, than to simply hole in a motel in the middle of Kansas or wherever for an extra night.

[GuitarGeek]

Well, we all learned from their fail Yeah it was insanity and I'm sure it was shown to be insanity before ever undertaking it. The only upside is that the ELP orchestra knew the material. There's nothing like seeing the Moody Blues, let alone Yes, with the mighty and majestic Chattanooga Symphony with a bunch of 3rd stringers that still can't play the basic repertoire after 30 years and have had one rehearsal trying to play what they patronizingly think of as "simple rawk and rool" in time. Or with Yes, watch them try and play in 7. Hilarity ensues. The Symphonic show in Atlanta was a borderline disaster and that's a decent symphony.

The orchestra they (Yes) used in Europe and for the DVD killed. Those kids got it. And they did multiple shows and got really tight.

I thought the orchestra they used on the Columbus Ohio show on that tour worked rather well, though I do remember the conductor telling me after the show that the brass were "a little weak".

But I do remember it being said the orchestras varied from city to city in quality. Obviously, given Yes finances at the time (and probably other considerations), they weren't going to be playing with the Cleveland Orchestra or some other top drawer ensemble. I think they were mostly playing with community orchestras from smaller cities. I think it was said the orchestra on the night I saw were from Youngstown, Ohio, I believe.

I remember at the time saying I was disappointed that they didn't use the Firebird finale as the play on music. I thought it would have sounded great hearing an actual orchestra playing that live, segueing into whatever song they opened with on that tour (I don't even remember what they started with). Then someone said she was thankful she didn't have to hear Stravinsky being massacred by some of the ensembles she heard on the tour (I guess she was one of these people who saw about six or seven shows on the tour or whatever).

[SteveSly]

Don't think anyone's mentioned Derek Shulman. I was watching a documentary called "Metal Evolution" and they interviewed a record company exec and it just happened to be Derek who was identified as the A&R Rep for some record label - with absolutely no mention of being the vocalist for Gentle Giant. I'm sure a job as an A&R man is highly preferable to digging ditches, but I was kind of shocked that he wasn't living the life of a financially independent musician.

Shulman has made a shitload more money with his label then he ever did with Gentle Giant. In fact he is one of the more succesfull A&R guys in record history. There are members of Gentle Giant who are members of this forum. I doubt they will wiegh in, but Shulman had a great run as an exec.

[Jerjo]

There is actually a new documentery on Entwistle that either just came out or is coming out. He bascially continued to live the high flying rock n roll lifesyle until the day he died, but in order to maintain that lifestyle he had to have the money from The Who's touring revenue.

Not to mention the coke habit that contributed to his demise. I remember reading accounts by both Pete and Roger after John's death and they did not hold back in their rage at the choices their bassist made.

[SteveSly]

Not to mention the coke habit that contributed to his demise. I remember reading accounts by both Pete and Roger after John's death and they did not hold back in their rage at the choices their bassist made.

Yes, it sounds from interviews I have heard with them, that he was still very much into the partying lifestyle including both heavy drug and alcohol use.

[firth5th]

Yes, it sounds from interviews I have heard with them, that he was still very much into the partying lifestyle including both heavy drug and alcohol use.

And hookers.

Hookers ain't cheap.

[Fox]

This should be asked of the 1%. Most musician make shit for money. Just like the rest of us.

[firth5th]

This should be asked of the 1%. Most musician make shit for money. Just like the rest of us.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...36163969392246

[luvyesmusic]

I came across this video interview of Jay Jay French of Twisted Sister and watched it today. Pretty interesting and paints a pretty accurate picture of what is was like to be in a successful band and some other funny and serious anecdotes and stories.

[Joe F.]

And hookers.

Hookers ain't cheap.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of "cheap" hookers.

[GuitarGeek]

BTW, another thing that probably ruined ELP's finances: the Yamaha GX-1. I believe at the time, the instrument cost $50,000. That's Carter era US dollars! It'd be interesting to find out if Keith paid for that out of his own pocket or if he used band finances (such as Jerry Garcia did with his Doug Irwin guitars, there was a big lawsuit because Jerry had willed the guitars back to Irwin, but "Grateful Dead Inc" or whatever the company that manages the band's "affairs" is called, decided that since Jerry paid for the guitars with checks drawn from the band's account, the guitars technically belonged to the band, and therefore upon Jerry's death, the company claimed ownership of the instruments).

I remember joking that maybe the reason the Return To Forever reunion happened a few years ago was because Chick was still paying off the Synclavier and DX-1 he used during the Electrick Band years.

[Gruno]

What about bands like I don't know, Tears for Fears? I mean they had a lot of hits in the 80s, but they never reached levels like the Rolling Stones, etc. Do you think the Tears for Fears guys have to work to keep food on the table and a basic roof over their heads, or do they live in mansions with servants feeding them grapes and tour for the fun of it?

How about somewhere in between?

Roland never has to work again. He could live off of the 4 biggest hits he wrote for TFF and be better than fine. He owns a very nice home in the Hollywood Hills in California. He also owns a gorgeous estate in England. He bought the Hollywood home when he reunited with Curt Smith. In fact, the house is just a block and a half away from Curt's. Roland is also a very generous person towards friends, family, and many of his employees.

Curt owns a nice home. He didn't write many of the hits for TFF, so he obviously doesn't get as much money as Roland does. Still, I doubt he would ever have to work again. He does like to buy his gadgets and trinkets that do get pricey. Curt's wife is a major player in the fashion industry. She works constantly and is away on business (New York, Paris, London, etc.) many times through the year. I am sure that between the two of them, they do better than alright.

Do they need to work? Nope. They do enjoy touring. However, Curt has had a rule of no touring for longer than 2 weeks straight unless he can see his family during that time or take a week off and resume. That's the luxury of not having to work.

[zombywoof]

Curt also had the occasional guest spot on USA's "Psych" series. The writers and stars are big Tears for Fears fans.

[Gruno]

Curt also had the occasional guest spot on USA's "Psych" series. The writers and stars are big Tears for Fears fans.

Yes. Some of the cast members have also joined Curt on stage during his solo shows. At a Tears For Fears concert in Florida, Curt asked me to place a whole pineapple on stage and during the show I took pics of him, ahem… interacting with it.

Not a fan of Psych, so the joke was lost on me.

[PotatoSolution]

This should be asked of the 1%. Most musician make shit for money. Just like the rest of us.

Not to derail too heavily, but if you make $34,000 or more per year (after taxes), you are in the top 1% of income earners in the world.

Also, Genesis invested in Vari-Lite concert lighting technology that has been heavily used by many bands in the 80s through today, and they made quite a bit of coin from that as well.