RIP Ovation Guitars

[GuitarGeek]

That guitar ran circles around the '62 reissue. I still have it. Cheap hardware, but it plays great.

Bill

OF course, the thing about cheap hardware is, often times, if it's a Fender or Gibson style instrument, you can change it out for more expensive parts. I've always heard it said that many of the Mexican built Fenders and I guess some of the Squiers, at least, if you swap out the pickups for Seymours or DiMarzios or whatever, they immediately become much better sounding instruments. Supposedly, there was talk in some circles that if you wanted a Tele like Danny Gatton's, rather than buying the signature model that Fender offered, you could just buy one of the lower end models, swap in the Joe Barden pickups and save yourself about 1500 bucks.

[Adm.Kirk]

OF course, the thing about cheap hardware is, often times, if it's a Fender or Gibson style instrument, you can change it out for more expensive parts. I've always heard it said that many of the Mexican built Fenders and I guess some of the Squiers, at least, if you swap out the pickups for Seymours or DiMarzios or whatever, they immediately become much better sounding instruments. Supposedly, there was talk in some circles that if you wanted a Tele like Danny Gatton's, rather than buying the signature model that Fender offered, you could just buy one of the lower end models, swap in the Joe Barden pickups and save yourself about 1500 bucks.

That's probably true, but my experience has been that I actually like the pickups that came with my Squier. I bought my daughter a Squier Strat a couple of years ago and it isn't all that great. Actually, with a little work, it would be OK. It needs a proper set up. The Tele was great right off the floor. I'm still amazed that it wiped the floor with that expensive '62 reissue.

Bill

[Classic Progressive]

I found a Carvin newsletter from 2012 that said the Cobalt line was being discontinued. These guitars don't currently appear on the website. So maybe they closed the Korea factory?

I'd love to see that happen. But odds are that cheap labor force will be to tempting. Carvin has great stuff, and have made a good name.

[Classic Progressive]

My Adamas guitars are fantastic Stage guitars... and the unique look they have always draws comments after the show. The pickup system and electronics make em sound better than any acoustic I have heard from the audience side... and no feedback. Now granted, in a studio to record... Yeah I'd go a nice old Guild or Taylor 6 string anyday...
But the 12 string adamas top acoustics are really a phenomenon... they come alive with that kind of soundboard tension... Yad have to hear one and comapre it to believe it.

[Classic Progressive]

I posted some youtube examples earlier.. of Nancy Wilson and Mark Knopfler, and one of the most amazing solo guitarists out there today "Adrian Legg:. Off the top of my head there was Glen Cambell, Jim Croce, John Lennin, Paul McCartney, Roger Waters, Jim Messena, Bob Marley, Chet Atkins, Paul Simon, Jimmy Page, Steve Vai, Cat Stevens, the guy from Bon Jovi? I am sure many more...

[Jerjo]

That's probably true, but my experience has been that I actually like the pickups that came with my Squier. I bought my daughter a Squier Strat a couple of years ago and it isn't all that great. Actually, with a little work, it would be OK. It needs a proper set up. The Tele was great right off the floor. I'm still amazed that it wiped the floor with that expensive '62 reissue.

Bill

All I have is an acoustic Epiphone, which I really love the tone of. I plan on graduating to electric at some point soon and am troubled as to how I'm going to find a decent sounding electric and know the difference.

[tormato]

All I have is an acoustic Epiphone, which I really love the tone of. I plan on graduating to electric at some point soon and am troubled as to how I'm going to find a decent sounding electric and know the difference.

Definitely find a QUIET place to play and be able to hear what is played away from salesmen. A couple of years back I began looking for an Acoustic-Electric classical and found an Ibanez and Ovation (non-US) that I thought I liked and when I got them to a quiet room finally, they had all sorts of problems. That's when I lucked into the 1763 classical.

[Classic Progressive]

Definitely find a QUIET place to play and be able to hear what is played away from salesmen. A couple of years back I began looking for an Acoustic-Electric classical and found an Ibanez and Ovation (non-US) that I thought I liked and when I got them to a quiet room finally, they had all sorts of problems. That's when I lucked into the 1763 classical.

Bring a friend and have them play a good strumming song... the same one each time on differing guitars..to get a good idea of actual sound you need to stand in front. Play a picking tune as well.

Funny I had a friend who has a used $250 Epiphone... I swear it is superior to another friends $3000 taylor.

You have got to try them all....each guitar has differing sounds with in the name brands and models. If you don't have someone with you, it helps to sit in front of a glass window, anything that reflects the sound back at you well.

[profusion]

I'd love to see that happen. But odds are that cheap labor force will be to tempting. Carvin has great stuff, and have made a good name.

Carvin definitely got rid of the Cobalt line and has gone back to all-USA production. Doesn't mean it will stay that way, but that's the way it is for now. Their production process is heavily automated and standardized, but even with that, Carvin's prices have climbed pretty sharply in recent years.

I'll be more interested to see what the closing of the Ovation factory does to Guild, since those were made in that factory too. Guild makes some amazing high-end acoustics that can't simply be mass-produced in Asia the way Ovations are now.

[ForeverAutumn]

Rickenbacker is the last company made in the USA exclusively...

Larrivée recently moved their operations from Vancouver, B.C. to California. I believe that is their sole factory. If you've never played a Larrivée, you should search one out. They make beautiful guitars.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...tory-1.2432992

They didn't feel comfortable/natural to hold, because of the rounded shape of the body's back

For years an Ovation was my dream guitar. When I finally had the money I bought a 2002 limited edition. It sounded great and had fantastic action. I loved the feel of the fretboard. I thought it was perfect! Then after owning it for a few months I realized that I didn't really like it. The rounded back just never sat right on me and it was forever sliding around while I played it.

[jkelman]

A number of years ago, I went out and bought a new '62 reissue Tele. Beautiful instrument. Played like crap. I sold it but still wanted a tele. A few weeks later, I went into the MARS store in Raleigh where they had a bunch of Squier's on sale. I bought one for $99. Plain, black with a white pick guard. It looked like the one Bob Dylan played on the '66 tour with the band. That guitar ran circles around the '62 reissue. I still have it. Cheap hardware, but it plays great.

Bill

Terje Rypdal continues to use the Mexico-built Squires, just fyi...and if they're good enough for Terje.....

[Classic Progressive]

Carvin definitely got rid of the Cobalt line and has gone back to all-USA production. Doesn't mean it will stay that way, but that's the way it is for now. Their production process is heavily automated and standardized, but even with that, Carvin's prices have climbed pretty sharply in recent years.

I'll be more interested to see what the closing of the Ovation factory does to Guild, since those were made in that factory too. Guild makes some amazing high-end acoustics that can't simply be mass-produced in Asia the way Ovations are now.

Well I am glad to hear that about Carvin... ! And yeah Ovation had some great craftsmen and women there. Wonder what will happen to Hamer?

[GuitarGeek]

Terje Rypdal continues to use the Mexico-built Squires, just fyi...and if they're good enough for Terje.....

Doesn't Steve Rothery use a Squier Strat as well? I guess there's quite a few pro musicians who favor Squier instruments. I've forgotten names, but several were noted in Guitar Player's review of the Surf Modified Strat (or whatever it's called, the one with the Seymour Duncan lipstick tube pickups), as if to prove the point that you shouldn't poo-poo the guitar just because it's a low end, offshore produced instrument.

[N_Singh]

Doesn't Steve Rothery use a Squier Strat as well? I guess there's quite a few pro musicians who favor Squier instruments. I've forgotten names, but several were noted in Guitar Player's review of the Surf Modified Strat (or whatever it's called, the one with the Seymour Duncan lipstick tube pickups), as if to prove the point that you shouldn't poo-poo the guitar just because it's a low end, offshore produced instrument.

It takes about 3.5 hours total, from start to finish, to make those planks/slabs. They got it down to a science now with the factory production.

Leo is lionized but he ran the company on a shoestring budget and badly needed capital resources to reinvest in plant equipment.

Nothing more stupid than idiots spending tens of thousands of dollars on a 50-60 year old Fender plank to get some non-existent tonal "mojo". I don't follow these stupid stories generally, but the garbage surrounding Eric "White Power" Clapton's "Blackie" deserves special mention for its profund imbecility.

An off-the-presses $300 Esquire gives you exactly the same thing.

Ed Bickert proved you can sound beautiful playing a plank. Hell, I bet that even if left his Tele in his garage or car trunk during those Toronto winters, it would still intonate and play just fine.

[GuitarGeek]

Nothing more stupid than idiots spending tens of thousands of dollars on a 50-60 year old Fender plank to get some non-existent tonal "mojo". I don't follow these stupid stories generally, but the garbage surrounding Eric "White Power" Clapton's "Blackie" deserves special mention for its profund imbecility.

Well, at the time that people started paying those ridiculous prices for pre-CBS Fenders there was a reason for it, ie CBS didn't know the first thing about running a guitar company and completely destroyed Fender's reputation in the process of demonstrating that fact. Before the 70's, an old Fender was just a used guitar, you got the same depreciation that you got with any piece of used merchandise. But because of all the short cuts and stupid decisions that CBS put into place, they (along with the idiots who wrecked Gibson, Gretsch, and a few other companies during that same era) jump started the vintage guitar market.

What "garbage" is there surrounding Clapton's Strat?

BTW, now I'm thinking about all the guitar companies that sold out to corporate concerns during the late 60's and 70's. CBS bought Fender, Norlin (who also eventually ended up owning Pearl Drums and Moog Music) bought Gibson, I forget who bought Gretsch. I think Rickenbacker and Martin (which is still run by the Martin, btw) are about the only major American guitar companies that never sold out or were otherwise acquired by some faction of the Imperial Empire.

[profusion]

Well I am glad to hear that about Carvin... ! And yeah Ovation had some great craftsmen and women there. Wonder what will happen to Hamer?

Fender shut down Hamer several years ago. Fender kept the Hamer employees and transferred them over to working on Ovations and Guilds. The former Hamer folks were still permitted to finish up some leftover Hamer custom orders in their spare time, but I understand that several may have not been finished at the time of the plant closure.

Terje Rypdal continues to use the Mexico-built Squires, just fyi...and if they're good enough for Terje.....

Squiers are built in China now. The Mexican plant builds Fender-logoed guitars that are sort of the company's "mid-range" products. You can find good Squiers if you try a bunch of them. Their quality control isn't that great. The Mexican guitars are almost as good as the American ones, but their hardware is not as high-quality (which has nothing to do with their build quality). Replace the crap bridge, tuners and pickups on a Mexi-Fender, and you've got...a guitar that costs almost as much as an American Fender.

[Mikhael]

Damn shame about Hamer. Those were some of the greatest playing guitars I came across. I still have a Hamer Chaparral that plays like greased lightening.
Ovations played well, but I never cared for the tone. And yeah, they slid off your lap. I do feel for the employees who get screwed when this happens, though.

[Adm.Kirk]

I've got a couple of Epiphones. A double neck and an acoustic. I don't have any problem with them either! If they were good enough for Lennon and McCartney....

Bill

[N_Singh]

Well, at the time that people started paying those ridiculous prices for pre-CBS Fenders there was a reason for it, ie CBS didn't know the first thing about running a guitar company and completely destroyed Fender's reputation in the process of demonstrating that fact. Before the 70's, an old Fender was just a used guitar, you got the same depreciation that you got with any piece of used merchandise. But because of all the short cuts and stupid decisions that CBS put into place, they (along with the idiots who wrecked Gibson, Gretsch, and a few other companies during that same era) jump started the vintage guitar market.

What "garbage" is there surrounding Clapton's Strat?

BTW, now I'm thinking about all the guitar companies that sold out to corporate concerns during the late 60's and 70's. CBS bought Fender, Norlin (who also eventually ended up owning Pearl Drums and Moog Music) bought Gibson, I forget who bought Gretsch. I think Rickenbacker and Martin (which is still run by the Martin, btw) are about the only major American guitar companies that never sold out or were otherwise acquired by some faction of the Imperial Empire.

Gibson's problem with the Norlin era is that they had newly out of college marketing guys with fancy degrees and no actual luthier experience sourcing wood. That said, there were plenty of fantastic guitars made then. I had a '74 Howard Roberts Custom that I regret trading. Oh well.

CBS needed to happen to Fender because Leo was running the company into the ground and did not have funds to furnish the basic capital stock. That said, Fender was a speck of dust on CBS's overall financial plate. My teacher actually helped facilitate the sale of Fender from CBS to private ownership, and his best friend ran the company until the mid 2000s.

By the way, Fender has resurrected Guild in the last year, and have made a fantastic facsimile of the legendary "monkey on a stick" pickups (DeArmond Rhythm Chief 11100s). Unfortunately, they don't yet sell them as separate entities; otherwise I would buy one for my '62 L5 to replace the Johnny Smith floating HB.

Regarding paying $50,000 for factory made plank guitars--that's just pure marketing garbage. There's no magical mojo in the sound of these guitars that make them suddenly superior to modern $300 factory made Esquires. It's the pickup that generates the fundamental sound, not the wood. These are factory-made planks, not carved, hand-made instruments like violins with the grade AAA solid tone woods have to breathe and come into their own. Anyone who pays tens of thousands for a '61 Strat is just kidding themselves.

Thankfully, the guitar market has kind of collapsed.

[WytchCrypt]

I've got a couple of Epiphones. A double neck and an acoustic. I don't have any problem with them either! If they were good enough for Lennon and McCartney....

Bill

I love my Epi's...I have a black Les Paul Custom and a Dove Pro steel 6 string...both super high quality and I can't recommend them highly enough.

[profusion]

Regarding paying $50,000 for factory made plank guitars--that's just pure marketing garbage. There's no magical mojo in the sound of these guitars that make them suddenly superior to modern $300 factory made Esquires. It's the pickup that generates the fundamental sound, not the wood. These are factory-made planks, not carved, hand-made instruments like violins with the grade AAA solid tone woods have to breathe and come into their own. Anyone who pays tens of thousands for a '61 Strat is just kidding themselves.

I agree about collectors' instruments, but not necessarily about $300 Squiers. A $1,200 American Fender Tele has better pickups, better hardware and better fretwork than a Squier. The difference will be sonically noticeable, and the difference in playability will usually be substantial. The quality control will also be better. I would never buy a Chinese-made instrument without being able to play it first, whereas I would have no problem ordering a USA Fender online.

[GuitarGeek]

I've got a couple of Epiphones. A double neck and an acoustic. I don't have any problem with them either! If they were good enough for Lennon and McCartney....

Bill

Well, unless those guitars you have were made in the 60's, George, John, and Paul don't come into it. The Epiphone company of the 50's and 60's is basically a different operation from the outfit that now bears that name. The current Epiphone basically came into being in the 80's, when Gibson re-purposed the company name and applied to their budget line models, essentially making Epiphone the Gibson version of Squier.

But you remind me of an interesting point about The Beatles: most of the guitars they're associated with (eg John's Rickenbacker 325, George's Gretsch Country Gentleman and "Rocky" Strat, Paul's Hofner basses, and the Epiphone Casinos all three of them used) were middle and lower range instruments. I think George's Rick 12 string and Paul's 4001 bass are about the only "top of the line" models that one typically associates with any of them.

And as a side note to that side note, I always dug the Les Paul Junior that John was seen playing in the 70's, which had a "Charlie Christian" pickup installed in the neck position.

[N_Singh]

I agree about collectors' instruments, but not necessarily about $300 Squiers. A $1,200 American Fender Tele has better pickups, better hardware and better fretwork than a Squier. The difference will be sonically noticeable, and the difference in playability will usually be substantial. The quality control will also be better. I would never buy a Chinese-made instrument without being able to play it first, whereas I would have no problem ordering a USA Fender online.

Probably right. But even an Esquire is a very playable guitar. I bought a 52 RI Tele (far more than $300!) and modded it, re-wiring it to modern standards, and putting heavy strings and a Lollar Charlie Christian neck pup on it. Now, I'm in the process of having an artist friend artistically paint it, like it's a painting. Can't do that to other guitars!

Probably the best value, over all, is a Warmouth where you can spec it out however you want it. In hindsight, I should have done that (1.75' nut width, ebony fingerboard with no inlay, keep the 25.5 scale, maybe some binding). But the 52 RI plays just fine. It's hard to go wrong with these guitars, assuming the QA/QC is up to snuff.

[GuitarGeek]

Regarding paying $50,000 for factory made plank guitars--that's just pure marketing garbage. There's no magical mojo in the sound of these guitars that make them suddenly superior to modern $300 factory made Esquires. It's the pickup that generates the fundamental sound, not the wood. These are factory-made planks, not carved, hand-made instruments like violins with the grade AAA solid tone woods have to breathe and come into their own. Anyone who pays tens of thousands for a '61 Strat is just kidding themselves.

Thankfully, the guitar market has kind of collapsed.

Yeah, but the situation that created the vintage market had nothing to do with today's $300 guitars. It had to do with CBS and Norlin frelling up Fender and Gibson. OK, so Leo had to sell the company. I can see that. But the people he sold it to ruined the company's rep by putting profits over quality. First they changed things cosmetically, ie changing the headstock shape on the Strat, reducing the number of custom colours, things like that.

But then they actually started changing things that affected the playability and function of the instruments. They changed the way the pickups were made (thus making the more prone to microphonic squeal). They switched over to the notorious three bolt neck, which would have been fine, except the lack of quality control caused the necks to move around in the neck pocket (it's common practice for those who do use 70's era Fenders to stick matchbooks in the neck pocket to keep the necks from shifting). They changed the way the Strat bridge saddles were made, switching from the stamped metal pieces that were used in the 50's and 60's to diecast pieces that affected the tone and sustain. They also started using massively thick polyester finishes which some say affect the tone of the instrument (before you suggest otherwise, consider that George Harrison once stated that removing the finish from his and John's Epiphone Casinos improved the tone of the guitars, and I recall Joe Perry saying similar things about a Strat that he had stripped of it's finish).

Even CBS's attempts to restore the rep of the company in the late 70's and early 80's proved ham fisted. Consider the Strat, the early 80's variation that was apparently meant to herald the return of sanity to the company. You got deluxe appointments like gold plated control knobs, super secret deluxe wiring (which gave you four extra pickup combinations), high output pickups (no doubt an attempt to compete with the then emerging replacement pickup market), a return (finally!) to the four bolt neck...and the wrong headstock shape. It's actually the same headstock shape that was used on Fender's low end Lead series, but how it ended up being used on the Strat is anybody's guess (and I've read three different books on the history on the Stratocaster, nobody seems to know how it happened).

Then came the "Standard" and "Elite" era. The Strats had a badly designed tremolo system that didn't work very well, apparently the result of a rushed R&D phase and a need to get something out on the market that would cost less than the original designs.

In one of the books I have, it's mentioned that at whichever NAMM convention it was that it was announced that CBS was finally divesting itself of Fender (if you adjusted their purchase cost for inflation, they actually lost money on the deal), there was a "collective sigh of relief" heard amongst everyone who was there. People really thought Fender was gonna go down for good if things had kept going the way they were.

That's why people pay stupid prices for pre-CBS Fenders. Would I pay 20 grand for a pre-CBS Strat? Maybe not. I can get as good a guitar made from any number of sources today. Hell, I can buy the parts from Warmoth and build a guitar that's virtually indistinguishable from a pre-CBS Fender. And I could get that guitar in colour I want, with gold hardware, matching headstock, etc. And hell, if I want it with lipstick tube or Filtertron pickups, or with a zebra or tiger stripe finish or a mother of toiletseat pickguard, I could do that too

On the other hand, if the chance to own a guitar that belonged to someone like David Gilmour, Jeff Beck, Frank Zappa, Steve Hillage, somebody like that, well...I'd never have the money that would be needed to buy, let's say Gilmour's black Strat or the 0001 Strat, if either guitar should ever go on auction (which probably won't happen until Dave's dead), but it would certainly be tempting if I did have the money.

But if I was gonna buy a vintage guitar, and pay serious cash for it (and again, this would require me to hit the lottery first) it'd have to be some nice, something like and old Gretsch or Gibson. Most especially, I'd like to have an ES-5 Switchmaster or one of those old Gibson mandolins (a local guitar shop had a 1940's Gibson mandolin for something like 4 grand a few years ago).

But at this stage, the reason people are paying big bucks for vintage guitars, it's not so much to have a guitar that's better than what you can buy now, but it's more the opportunity so they can have friends over to the house and say "Look at what I bought!". It goes in a glass case or a bank vault or whatever, and never gets played again. Look, if you want to do that, buy yourself a damn Picasso or whatever.

Bonnie Raitt once made a really interesting comment about vintage guitars that I had never thought of. She said you should honor the life of the trees that were cut down so the guitar should be made, meaning you should play the damn thing, not put in a glass case like it's some kind of rare specimen of something or whatever.

[Mister Triscuits]

The Mexican guitars are almost as good as the American ones, but their hardware is not as high-quality (which has nothing to do with their build quality). Replace the crap bridge, tuners and pickups on a Mexi-Fender, and you've got...a guitar that costs almost as much as an American Fender.

I did all that and more with a Mexican Tele--Seymour Duncans, locking Grovers, etc.--and it still didn't come anywhere near what I paid for my American one. AND I was able to recoup half the cost of the new hardware by selling the original Fender parts on eBay!