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Thread: Spiritual vs. Scientific Prog?

  1. #1

    Spiritual vs. Scientific Prog?

    I have a question: Which is your favorite prog lyric theme?
    The spiritual side that tends toward Eastern mysticism or the scientific (or sci-fi) side that tends toward humanism/atheism?
    What are your favorite examples?

    I have gone back and forth over the years, myself. And I'm tending toward the mystical today. My current favorite coming from the most recent Legend release called Spirit.

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    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Lyrics have to be something I can relate to or have experienced myself personally or agree with...

    that being said, none of the above work for me, especially considering most Prog vocalists are mediocre at best
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

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    Member BobM's Avatar
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    I am absolutely a concept album prog lover and a vast reader of fantasy sci-fi. Not space opera though, so I would absolutely lean to the mystical and fantasy realm on this one.

    Lyrics and vocals are really more of another instrument for me anyway and I don't pay all that much attention to the words unless there is an amazing lyricist at work, like Kevin Gilbert.
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    Subterranean Tapir Hobo Chang Ba's Avatar
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    If there are vocals, I much prefer vocal utterances and sounds that have no explicit/direct meaning and are there primarily to fill a musical role.

    If there have to be words I preferred garbled nonsense stuff (ie Yezda Urfa).

    If there has to be meaning, I prefer more esoteric/unusual themes.
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    For me the lyrics are secondary. I can enjoy a great tune with poor lyrics, but not the other way round.

    That said, I love lyrics that tell a story, like Return of the Giant Hogweed. However it doesn't have to be weird or fantasy/science fiction, just something that has a decent narrative,preferably with a little mystery attached. "Ticking" by Elton John is a good example.Another is "Turnof the Century"by Yes.

    I don't mind lyrics that reveal the writer's spiritual/religious/atheistic leanings, as long as they are not too preachy and direct, because most likely the opinions are not going to fully align with mine. I'm quite happy for Joni to tell me that I and stardust and I am golden, and I am a million-year-old child, it's a feelgood song, but it's all just metaphor and I don't dwell on it too much.

    "Space opera"and "sword and sorcery" themes get very tiresome.But then that's how I feel about those literature genres also, so I would say that.

  6. #6
    Hummm Well, since I was told recently how terrible Jon Anderson is/was as a lyricist... I thought I'd throw this one phrase out, as it is quite brilliant in its conveyance of competition and a determined sport mentality and all so clever in its performance within the measure musically.

    It's not spiritual in the classic sense nor atheistic but I always thought much of his work was "clever". His performance in singing this work in such a clear high range was what was brilliant. Made it very hard to copy...

    From "Going for The One"

    "And here you stand no taller than the grass sees
    And should you really chase so hard
    The truth of sport plays rings around you"
    Of course, not being of the daily persuasion in this opinion laden public prog bathhouse, my diatribe of recent lucubration is perhaps as welcome as a rats teat. One often is forced to weigh the desire to flash judgment within against the effort required as well as the value this knowledge will be to the greater good of all mankind or whatever inhabits the current spa. At best, its a slippery slope.

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    Member Man In The Mountain's Avatar
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    I prefer neither. I like lyrics that tell a story, or have deep reflections on life, experiences, people, events. Not religion, or spirituality, or lack thereof. Music is my spirituality, it's how I commune with others through a common interest, and find peace and happiness in the act of listening and playing, and sharing.

    If music is good art, it should be up for personal interpretation by the listener.
    Last edited by Man In The Mountain; 04-09-2014 at 10:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    Hummm Well, since I was told recently how terrible Jon Anderson is/was as a lyricist... I thought I'd throw this one phrase out...
    Many of Anderson's lyrics are what people call "stream of consciousness". If you read them as poetry or prose they would make little sense and might well make you wince, but when set to music the collection of words evokes a particular feeling or image. "Awaken" is probably the archetypal example of that. You see it even more in his later collaborations with Vangelis, on songs like "I Hear You Now", "State of Independence" and "Horizon".

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    The sound of the vocals is what's important to me, not the lyrics. Whether it's Neal Morse's faith based lyrics or Arjen Lucassen's space operas, it makes no difference to me.

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    I rarely listen to lyrics, I listen to music for the music, the lyrics could be in Venutian for all I care. I listen to lots of German bands singing in German and I love it, I understand quite a lot of it, but it is secondary, I listen for the music not the lyrics. Which is why I rarely listen to singer/songwriters who usually sing their profound or meaningful lyrics over very simple music. My view is that if you're going to do that you might as well be a performing poet. Hence I've never liked Bob Dylan or Lou Reed or Tom Waits or Leonard Cohen or James Taylor or Jackson Browne or Tim and Jeff Buckley and so on. If the music is only there to support the singer I'm not interested. Singing for me should simply be another instrument as a part of the music, and as such a compostion can survive in its own right without the singing.
    Last edited by PeterG; 04-09-2014 at 10:10 AM.

  11. #11
    With some exceptions, I don't care what they're singing, as long as it's done well and with passion. I am totally non-religious, but love gospel music. I can listen someone like Sam Cooke and the Soul Stirrers any day of the week.
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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobo Chang Ba View Post
    If there are vocals, I much prefer vocal utterances and sounds that have no explicit/direct meaning and are there primarily to fill a musical role.

    If there have to be words I preferred garbled nonsense stuff (ie Yezda Urfa).

    If there has to be meaning, I prefer more esoteric/unusual themes.
    We're polar opposites here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    I prefer neither. I like lyrics that tell a story, or have deep reflections on life, experiences, people, events. Not religion, or spirituality, or lack thereof. Musical is my spirituality, it's how I commune with others through a common interest, and find peace and happiness in the act of listening and playing, and sharing.

    If music is good art, it should be up for personal interpretation by the listener.
    Totally agree with Martin.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    Actually, I like both. I don't mind religious or spiritual themes. As long as it's not the in your face or the worship happy clappy stuff. I'm a sucker for fantasy and sci-fi. I enjoy getting lost in a different universe along with the music that goes with it.

  14. #14
    I certainly appreciate a good lyric: someone mentioned 'Turn of the Century' above, I'd also mention 'Blood on the Rooftops,' 'Dogs,' and 'Book of Saturday.' While not really progressive in the conventional sense, I still hold that Walter Becker and Donald Fagen have turned out some of the finest goddamned wordplay since the 70's (and still have, even recently).

    I don't always gravitate toward any certain type of theme. I *do* tend to cringe away from very preachy lyrics and themes (I don't mean 'preachy' in the literal sense...a badly-written lyric about evolution would be as "preachy" in my eyes as a badly-written lyric about intelligent design).

    Randy mentioned Jon Anderson above. I think he has done some excellent lyrics. Just not in a while. Not just him either...Roger Waters has written some of my all-time favorite hooks, but songs like To Kill The Child and Leaving Beiruit are exceptionally cringeworthy IMHO (it isn't whether I agree or disagree...simply that it feels exceptionally cheesy in execution).

    I think we can all agree though that the true epitome of lyrical brilliance would be Kraftwerk. Or possibly Kraan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emperorken View Post
    Whether it's Neal Morse's faith based lyrics or Arjen Lucassen's space operas, it makes no difference to me.
    Are really these two the immediate examples that spring to mind? Think what one will about Peter Hammill as vocalist, but at least he knew what "lyrics" actually imply in music.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    I rarely listen to lyrics, I listen to music for the music, the lyrics could be in Venutian for all I care. I listen to lots of German bands singing in German and I love it, I understand quite a lot of it, but it is secondary, I listen for the music not the lyrics. Which is why I rarely listen to singer/songwriters who usually sing their profound or meaningful lyrics over very simple music. My view is that if you're going to do that you might as well be a performing poet. Hence I've never liked Bob Dylan or Lou Reed or Tom Waits or Leonard Cohen or James Taylor or Jackson Browne or Tim and Jeff Buckley and so on. If the music is only there to support the singer I'm not interested. Singing for me should simply be another instrument as a part of the music, and as such a compostion can survive in its own right without the singing.
    Same here. You said it better than I could. I agree with your main thesis, though I disagree with some of your examples.

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    Member Mikhael's Avatar
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    If the lyrics speak to me, whether abstract or story-telling, so much the better. But mostly I treat the vocals as another instrument; a melodic focus within the song. So unless the lyrics are VERY cringe-inducing, I don't much care. Spiritual lyrics are fine, as long as they are well done and address something personal and real. I don't care for blatant preachy lyrics, no matter the denominational aspect.

    I should mention that I'm a Christian, although I've come to realize that an all-powerful God can't be the petty jealous creature that most religions make God out to be. I think there's something else out there, but I don't think any of the organized religions have the full grasp of It that they claim to. There's some truth to humans making God over into their own image. Hmm, I think there's a song there somewhere...
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  18. #18
    There are just a very few writers in the prog field where I am really curious about the both the music AND the words. One of them is Andy Tillison, mainly because he is such a great observer of the human condition and of the way we interact with the world. Here is the title track of A Place In The Queue (the lyrics are on included in the description on the Youtube page of this link):


  19. #19
    And then there is Roy Harper's way with words which in the past I found very difficult to get in to but I have come around to that and am increasingly drawn to them and of course the music. Here is one from his recent album which has some great lines .... and some neat guitarplaying by one Pete Townsend:


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    Jimmy Webb is an "out" Christian. On most of his songs his religion is very much understated, if it's evident at all, but there are a couple where he proclaims it loud and clear. His first solo album proper contains "Psalm 150" which is simply the words of said psalm set to music, and very exciting and proggy music it is too. The other is "Jerusalem". Unfortunately neither of them appear to be available as clips on the Internet. I don'tmind religion in a song if the music is good and the lyrics are not maudlin.

    Here's one that is available - the song that inspired the formation of a country supergroup of the same name. The lyrics are not specifically Christian, but very spiritual, on the theme of reincarnation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LmD0TE41Xk

    (Embedding is disabled)

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    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
    If the lyrics speak to me, whether abstract or story-telling, so much the better. But mostly I treat the vocals as another instrument
    like bagpipes most of the time...

    they have to be very good vocalists, otherwise I much prefer the bands just play the music and forget about idiotic lyrics
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

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    Member wideopenears's Avatar
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    As a poet, and a poetry reader, I like good lyrics. And as a practicing Buddhist, I appreciate "spiritual" lyrics. I'm also a pragmatist, so I like some hard-boiled approach, as well....ELP's Karn Evil 9, for example...I find Anderson's lyrics inspiring quite often, also Gabriel's....but I also value a great sense of humor, so the Canterbury lyricists deserve special mention. Also a fan of Syd Barrett's wordplay. I like the lyrics on that Tangent release referred to earlier.....pretty thoughtful and reflective.

    I also appreciate "voice-as-instrument." Much of what I listen to is Jazz.

    Lyrics I don't like are those that are obvious propaganda, or just offensive-for-the-sake-of-it. Rooster Crowing can be okay, but too much of it turns me off.

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    [QUOTE=bob_32_116;239982]

    Here's one that is available - the song that inspired the formation of a country supergroup of the same name. The lyrics are not specifically Christian, but very spiritual, on the theme of reincarnation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LmD0TE41Xk

    Really enjoyed that clip; thanks for posting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisXymphonia View Post
    And then there is Roy Harper's way with words which in the past I found very difficult to get in to but I have come around to that and am increasingly drawn to them and of course the music. Here is one from his recent album which has some great lines .... and some neat guitarplaying by one Pete Townsend:
    No better writer and very capable of handling any topic. There's an underlying honesty and intensity in his lyrics that is admirable.
    For that which is not,
    there is no coming into being
    and for that which is,
    there is no ceasing to be;
    yea of both of these the lookers into truth have seen an end.
    Bhagavad Gita

  25. #25
    I prefer non-English lyrics, so I don't have to cringe at how cheesy they are.

    If they must be in English, I prefer abstract, so I don't have to understand them in order to cringe at how cheesy they are.
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