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Thread: What makes a song a "Prog Epic" to you?

  1. #26
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    I unfortunately agree with the poster about Transatlantic epics. There's a lot of repeating motifs that just build forever, and after a while I'm at the "Enough already!" point.
    As to the questions of modern bands and epics, as much as I love some of them, Transatlantic's "The Whirlwind" and The Flower Kings "The Truth Will Set You Free" are great examples in my mind of songs that could have stronger. The Whirlwind has some nice moments, but they're thrown together as "movements" in this larger piece and can't standalone. With "Truth", I always get lost about half way in. I've always felt if they'd wrapped that track up in 13-15 minutes (as opposed to 31), that would have been much stronger.
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  2. #27
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squids View Post
    I'm actually working on a longer form song right now in addition to shorter songs (although the shortest seems to be about 5-6 minutes). What I like about writing one is that it offers a chance to take you on a journey and have "movements" to it. It's also a good home for certain parts that might not otherwise have a place in a song. That said, I agree with those of you that say it can't just be a bunch of random ideas strung together to make it all a longer form piece. It has to MOVE you as piece collectively. There's an art to it like anything. Nice when there's a powerful ending to it that gives you an emotional pay off... like Supper's Ready does or Awaken.

    To the point a few others have alluded to, in the 70s or "vinyl" days, the epic track seemed more like an artistic expression, a creative experimentation of ideas - which was also limited by the wax. Many of these modern groups do it as a formula. One could argue there's advantages to each approach, but I think the best epics tend to be those that are less formulaic.
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    All this "journey" stuff I just can't seem to relate. I also can't relate to the twists and turns thing or the "novel" concept. Some of my favorite longer tracks across genres simply settle into a groove and stay there.
    Agreed. Can's Halleluwah is basically 18 minutes of the same groove and it's hypnotic. I could listen to that song forever and enjoy it more than a "overture/theme/bass groove/slow part/repeated theme/dragged out ending" Transatlantic-type epic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    To the point a few others have alluded to, in the 70s or "vinyl" days, the epic track seemed more like an artistic expression, a creative experimentation of ideas - which was also limited by the wax. Many of these modern groups do it as a formula. One could argue there's advantages to each approach, but I think the best epics tend to be those that are less formulaic.
    I think this defines it. The early 70s bands weren't setting out to write 'prog'.

    With The Flower Kings, 'The Truth...' strikes me as being two different mini-epics put together to make a 30-minute epic. Both of them are good in themselves, but it seems like they didn't really know how to end the first one.

    I'd agree where Neal Morse is concerned, that big, slow, 'Firth Of Fifth'/'And You And I'-style ending is evident in most every epic he's done. And yet I think Spock's Beard did have the ability to write good short songs- 'June' in particular I think is a really well written song. Take out the 'Waste Away' reference, which wouldn't make much sense to non-fans, and that could have been a hit IMHO. But lately it seems, as an observer, everything he does is epics.

  5. #30
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    What is truly funny about CTTE is that when it is over I feel like it went by way too quickly. I am just left waiting for more extension on some parts. I guess that's because Yes tried those extensions on Tales, which I liked, but many felt should have been cut down. There's a fine line between too little and too much in the instrumental (e.g. "battle") sections of most epics.

    Transatlantic takes it too far, as does Flower Kings sometimes. ELP alwys made those instrumental sections incredibly interesting, which was Emerson's genius. Tull always made them feel like integral parts of the song that just couldn't be left out, as did Genesis for the most part.
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  6. #31
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    As to the questions of modern bands and epics, as much as I love some of them, Transatlantic's "The Whirlwind" and The Flower Kings "The Truth Will Set You Free" are great examples in my mind of songs that could have stronger. The Whirlwind has some nice moments, but they're thrown together as "movements" in this larger piece and can't standalone. With "Truth", I always get lost about half way in. I've always felt if they'd wrapped that track up in 13-15 minutes (as opposed to 31), that would have been much stronger.
    I agree about 'Truth', where the chorus is repeated way too often. When I play the song once, I feel like I've played it 3 or 4 times. It would have been great at 13-15 minutes, as 'Silent Inferno' is. As to 'The Whirlwind', I admit I played it once and it didn't really connect with me and I haven't tried since. (there's so much to listen to, so little time!) One day I will feel like it and will play it again and may well enjoy it.

  7. #32
    Member Mikhael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTA View Post
    Agreed. Can's Halleluwah is basically 18 minutes of the same groove and it's hypnotic. I could listen to that song forever and enjoy it more than a "overture/theme/bass groove/slow part/repeated theme/dragged out ending" Transatlantic-type epic.
    I can't take 18 minutes of straight wanking, even if it's Holdsworth. If the composition is no more than a basic background groove, it might as well be a trad jazz number, where the "song" is just an excuse to jam over. Just not into that, even if the soloist is very good. I require thoughtful composition, and the best of that takes one through various musical places.

    And this is coming from a guitarist who loves to improvise. Go figure.
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  8. #33
    I like this Can track more than just about any prog epic I can think of. But I definitely don't consider it a prog epic itself. It's just a long track.

  9. #34
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    I agree about 'Truth', where the chorus is repeated way too often.
    I've heard this a few times before. I think the line "the truth will set you free" (not always with the same melody) appears 6 times in 30 minutes.
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  10. #35
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTA View Post
    Agreed. Can's Halleluwah is basically 18 minutes of the same groove and it's hypnotic. I could listen to that song forever and enjoy it more than a "overture/theme/bass groove/slow part/repeated theme/dragged out ending" Transatlantic-type epic.
    definitely... I feel the same way about some of the epic pieces on Miles' Agharta and Pangaea albums. The groove may be repetitive but the material is so strong that when it's over I just wanna hit the replay button!
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  11. #36
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    I've heard this a few times before. I think the line "the truth will set you free" (not always with the same melody) appears 6 times in 30 minutes.
    Sounds right. 3 times for a chorus is about my limit, no matter how long the song

  12. #37
    instrumental epic:
    I'm Freaking Out - Dixie Dregs
    Odyssey - Dixie Dregs

  13. #38
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    When I think of a classic Prog epic, I think of certain things, to include:

    a. A pronounced opening

    b. Vocal interlude

    c. Instrumental passages

    4. Changes in tempo and style as the piece progresses

    5. A return to the original theme

    6. The Grande Flourish at the end.

    My top ten favorite "epics" include (in no particular order):

    1. Tarkus
    2. Close To The Edge
    3. Supper's Ready
    4. Carrying No Cross
    5. Starless
    6. Shine On You Crazy Diamond
    7. Awaken
    8. Karn Evil 9
    9. Echoes
    10. Thick As A Brick

  14. #39
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    Sounds right. 3 times for a chorus is about my limit, no matter how long the song
    Just the words, not the chorus per se. If I recall correctly the chorus itself accounts for about 1.5 minutes out of 30.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
    I can't take 18 minutes of straight wanking, even if it's Holdsworth. If the composition is no more than a basic background groove, it might as well be a trad jazz number, where the "song" is just an excuse to jam over. Just not into that, even if the soloist is very good. I require thoughtful composition, and the best of that takes one through various musical places.

    And this is coming from a guitarist who loves to improvise. Go figure.
    Being a jazz fan, I can listen to long improvisations. In fact that's redundant; you have to like long improvisations if you're a jazz fan (and late era Coltrane could play on one tune for an hour). But I never thought of it as "epics." And we're talking about prog epics! YMMV, but for me, they have to go through time and mood changes or I'll probably get bored to tears. I don't get hypnotized by repetition; if anything, I get fidgety.

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