Soft Machine & Allan Holdsworth Live at Montreux Jazz Festival 1974

[Mikhael]

Okay, I'll play the other side. I *like* Holdsy on his own, at least a lot of it. But I like him as a part of a band, too. I think part of the weirdness is that his "sideman" work is just that; he doesn't have a lot of input on the writing. I know of no band situation where he is an equal member of the band - it's either ALL him, or it's a hired sideman role ("Okay, the solo's coming up...ready...GO!").

His chord work is as unusual as his solo work, and is criminally underused most of the time he appears on other's albums. I wish he would get into a real band situation where his skills, both as a writer and a performer, are used. Not likely to happen, though.

I do agree with one thing - I hope that @#$% Sunthaxe is dead. Not that he doesn't use it well, but I think it leaches the personality out of his solos. Maybe with a breath controller - no, don't give him any ideas. Shoot that thing and put it out of our misery...

He's not the only one, though. I wish Frank Gambale would find a good band (GHS wasn't bad), same with Yngwie, Macalpine, etc.

[No Pride]

Never had any kind of "wow factor" on his solo stuff...

If this doesn't have a "wow factor," I don't know what does:

[No Pride]

His chord work is as unusual as his solo work, and is criminally underused most of the time he appears on other's albums. I wish he would get into a real band situation where his skills, both as a writer and a performer, are used. Not likely to happen, though.

Agreed! When his first real solo album ("I.O.U." NOT "Velvet Darkness") came out, his chordal playing was revealed in it's full glory for the first time and I discovered that there was another side to his playing that was every bit as amazing and revolutionary as his soloing. I couldn't believe that no band that had him as a sideman ever utilized that aspect of his thing. He HAD to become a solo artist to unveil it.

[N_Singh]

Agreed! When his first real solo album ("I.O.U." NOT "Velvet Darkness") came out, his chordal playing was revealed in it's full glory for the first time and I discovered that there was another side to his playing that was every bit as amazing and revolutionary as his soloing. I couldn't believe that no band that had him as a sideman ever utilized that aspect of his thing. He HAD to become a solo artist to unveil it.

+2 His harmonic conceptions are more idiosyncratic and personal than his single note lines--he plays finger style when comping because using a pick would NEVER work, in the way that Segovia once denigrated plectrum players (no polyphony) .

I think his harmonic thinking, if it can be concretized, is an advanced modal (key-centered) approach wherein any note in the key is fair game at any time, limited only by his imagination and his ability to grab them.

[nosebone]

The best band he was in was with Bruford.

That was a perfect combination of players that complimented each other on both a compositional and improve level.

Holdsy's solo stuff got samey for me after Metal Fatigue.

[mellotron storm]

I love Holdsworth on Believe It! (Tony Williams Lifetime).

[Dean Watson]

No Pride, you said it, if there was ever a perfectly conceived and executed guitar solo, then the one on "Devil Take The Hindmost" has to be it. It's just perfect in every way .... talk about WOW factor ...

[No Pride]

The best band he was in was with Bruford.

At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, that depends on what "best" is. By this time, I'm sure you know that Bruford was one of my favorite bands of all time. But Allan wasn't happy in it, probably because again, he wasn't given the space to do his chordal thing. Also, I vaguely remember an interview where he called Bill's material "jigsaw music." Not sure what he meant by that, but I'm guessing he felt that it was pieced together with different sections that Bill was trying to make fit together. It doesn't strike me like that, but apparently that was Holdsy's impression.

I've seen Holdsworth live somewhere between 6 to 8 times; I lost track. But my favorite concert was when he had Steve Hunt, Chad Wackerman and Skuli Sverrisson; I think that was HIS best band (although Jimmy Johnson and Skuli were interchangeable; their approach to bass wasn't that radically different from one another). Steve Hunt (keyboards) was the key factor (no pun intended); not only did he speak "Holdsworthease" fluently, but he contributed some of his own tunes that fit with the program, but were different enough to broaden the general scope. Actually, I prefer Alan Pasqua's playing, that guy's an incredible keyboard player, but I don't know, maybe he steals too much of the thunder. Suffice to say that with Hunt, it was more like a bonafide band than anything Holdsworth had before or since.

I love Holdsworth on Believe It! (Tony Williams Lifetime).

The first time I heard Holdsy was on that album. A bass player friend was giving me a ride to a rehearsal and he popped BI in his cassette player. I remember screaming, "who the f**k is THIS?!"

No Pride, you said it, if there was ever a perfectly conceived and executed guitar solo, then the one on "Devil Take The Hindmost" has to be it. It's just perfect in every way .... talk about WOW factor ...

Right on, Dean! I hadn't got that excited about an electric guitar solo since I heard Hendrix's "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)," 15 or so years prior to that.

[Reid]

I hadn't got that excited about an electric guitar solo since I heard Hendrix's "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)," 15 or so years prior to that.

I don't even think of it in terms of a guitar solo. It's a melodic composition in itself. I've always wondered about the final take, and how much editing/splicing was done? If he blew straight through on it, it's a work of genius!

[Udi Koomran]

I also love Gazeuse!

[Zeuhlmate]

I love and own almost everything he is involved in (solo, and as sideman) including Wardenclyffe Tower/Hard Hat - but after that there is too much doodling and less composing - less band perhaps?.
The live album Blues for Tony is great, and so was the concert in Copenhagen ! Soft Works is o.k. too.
Maybe he again needs to be challenged more?

[JeffCarney]

I've seen Holdsworth live somewhere between 6 to 8 times; I lost track. But my favorite concert was when he had Steve Hunt, Chad Wackerman and Skuli Sverrisson; I think that was HIS best band

I saw him with Wackerman in what must have been around 1986?

Wackerman may be a great drummer but on that night his musicianship left a lot to be desired. He played so damned loud you'd have thought it was his band. Holdsworth was heavy into synthaxe at this point, too. If that was Holdsworth's best band, I can understand why some prefer to see him as part of a group, but I suppose the overuse of that synthaxe is the main factor in me not having real fond memories of that show.

[Trane]

If this doesn't have a "wow factor," I don't know what does:

Yawnnnnnn.... amphetamined ECM-type of jazz with 80's production value...

Did I hear Synclaviers??

Certainly not going to "wow" me

Nice try... but not even close

[No Pride]

Did I hear Synclaviers??

No, you heard guitar, bass guitar and drums.

Sorry it didn't "wow" you. It certainly "wowed" the shit out of me and some others on this thread, but we can't all have the same tastes. I've seen you get excited about some stuff here that made me think, "really?" But that's the way it goes. It'd probably be a pretty boring world if we all liked the same stuff.

[No Pride]

I saw him with Wackerman in what must have been around 1986?

Wackerman may be a great drummer but on that night his musicianship left a lot to be desired. He played so damned loud you'd have thought it was his band. Holdsworth was heavy into synthaxe at this point, too. If that was Holdsworth's best band, I can understand why some prefer to see him as part of a group, but I suppose the overuse of that synthaxe is the main factor in me not having real fond memories of that show.

Well, it might've been that it was just mixed poorly in the front of the house, but it could well be that you didn't like Chad's approach. Allan likes playing with busy and aggressive drummers who not only interact, but challenge him. One of the times I saw him, he had Gary Husband on drums and I felt the way you felt about Chad; he was overpowering the whole thing. Yet, Gary's on a live Holdsworth album called "Then!" and I though he sounded great on that.

I have no problem with the fact that a lot of people who liked him as a sideman don't like his leader work. Many of those bands he was in were a bit more rock oriented and Allan's thing is really jazz, though not in the traditional sense. I'm a long time jazz fan, but people who aren't may very well dislike that very improvisatory style of music. It's cool.

I don't hate the Synthaxe thing, even though I much prefer hearing him play guitar. I understand what it was about the instrument that appealed to him. Guitar with distortion can be noisy and it can make you not want to use much space, because you hear that hum/buzz/white noise kind of thing when you're not playing. It's also harder to control dynamics when you're using a certain amount of gain on an amplifier, yet you can't get a lot of sustain with a clean toned sound. I think those were things that really annoyed him. But it's moot at this point; he hasn't used the Synthaxe in years.

[nosebone]

At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, that depends on what "best" is. By this time, I'm sure you know that Bruford was one of my favorite bands of all time.

I considered the Bruford band "best" because they were all strong composers, improvisers, and were super creative.

In other words it sounded like a real band.

I'm a song guy, and those tunes, especially on One of a Kind were brilliantly crafted and thought out.

The "wow" factor with regards to "chops" has short shelf life for me.

[wideopenears]

I always say this in every Holdsworth thread.....I love watching his progression through the years, and I love his solo records--it's not just his soloing and playing, but his compositions that I think are really unique. And I love his synthaxe work---I think Non Brewed Condiment is some of the best synth playing, ever, regardless of whether it's keys, EWI, Synthaxe, or whatnot...I love the tone.

Oh, and Devil Take the Hindmost has one of the sickest guitar solos of the last ......few decades, IMO. Musically, and structurally, it's friggin' insane! Mind blowing, for me.....

[N_Singh]

I considered the Bruford band "best" because they were all strong composers, improvisers, and were super creative.

In other words it sounded like a real band.

I'm a song guy, and those tunes, especially on One of a Kind were brilliantly crafted and thought out.

The "wow" factor with regards to "chops" has short shelf life for me.

Here's a combination of "players with chops"from that same time period (1976) that normally don't play together:
Benson/Corea/Cobham

[JeffCarney]

Well, it might've been that it was just mixed poorly in the front of the house, but it could well be that you didn't like Chad's approach. Allan likes playing with busy and aggressive drummers who not only interact, but challenge him. One of the times I saw him, he had Gary Husband on drums and I felt the way you felt about Chad; he was overpowering the whole thing. Yet, Gary's on a live Holdsworth album called "Then!" and I though he sounded great on that.

I have no problem with the fact that a lot of people who liked him as a sideman don't like his leader work. Many of those bands he was in were a bit more rock oriented and Allan's thing is really jazz, though not in the traditional sense. I'm a long time jazz fan, but people who aren't may very well dislike that very improvisatory style of music. It's cool.

I don't hate the Synthaxe thing, even though I much prefer hearing him play guitar. I understand what it was about the instrument that appealed to him. Guitar with distortion can be noisy and it can make you not want to use much space, because you hear that hum/buzz/white noise kind of thing when you're not playing. It's also harder to control dynamics when you're using a certain amount of gain on an amplifier, yet you can't get a lot of sustain with a clean toned sound. I think those were things that really annoyed him. But it's moot at this point; he hasn't used the Synthaxe in years.

This wasn't a "mix" issue. The place was small enough where I'm not even certain he was being put with much volume through the PA.

I certainly would presume it was just an issue on that particular night because he's generally mixed well in terms of balance, but Wackerman is essentially a pounder. That's how he plays. He doesn't really swing and to be really effective at playing "busy" I think swing is pretty crucial. He's a good drummer but he just seems to sort of play a certain way that I don't hear as always meshing with Holdsworth. I far prefer how John Marshall interacts with Holdsworth in the video that started this thread, for example.

[No Pride]

The "wow" factor with regards to "chops" has short shelf life for me.

It's not the chops that "wow" me, Chris. If that was it, I'd probably dig Yngwie Malmsteen and Al DiMeola... and I don't. It's the content. Holdsworth wouldn't be Holdsworth without those chops, but that's far from the main attraction afaic.

Can someone be too active on one thread? If so, I think I may have crossed that line. Oh well!

[mellotron storm]

It's not the chops that "wow" me, Chris. If that was it, I'd probably dig Yngwie Malmsteen and Al DiMeola... and I don't. It's the content. Holdsworth wouldn't be Holdsworth without those chops, but that's far from the main attraction afaic.

Can someone be too active on one thread? If so, I think I may have crossed that line. Oh well!

If you've crossed a line you might as well keep going. I'm enjoying your thoughts as i'm sure many others are.
Have you heard Holdsworth on that K2 album Book Of The Dead ? Just curious because that album has nothing to do with Jazz so it's cool to hear him sort of out of his element.

[nosebone]

It's not the chops that "wow" me, Chris. If that was it, I'd probably dig Yngwie Malmsteen and Al DiMeola... and I don't. It's the content.

I know. I didn't mean Devil was only about "chops".
That's an astonishing solo.

I love Holdsy as much as you do, it's just that his trio thing never blew me away like Brufords band.

[Trane]

It's not the chops that "wow" me, Chris. If that was it, I'd probably dig Yngwie Malmsteen and Al DiMeola... and I don't. It's the content. Holdsworth wouldn't be Holdsworth without those chops, but that's far from the main attraction afaic.

Can someone be too active on one thread? If so, I think I may have crossed that line. Oh well!

I'd agree that virtuosity's for virtuosity"s sake is not my thing... main reasons why I'm not really in ADM or YM....

As to not "wowing" me, don't worry.... very few music does nowadays

I think only women can still "wow" me, nowadays (in either the good or the bad direction)...

[No Pride]

If you've crossed a line you might as well keep going. I'm enjoying your thoughts as i'm sure many others are.
Have you heard Holdsworth on that K2 album Book Of The Dead ? Just curious because that album has nothing to do with Jazz so it's cool to hear him sort of out of his element.

Well, I don't know about the others, but I'm glad you're enjoying my ramblings, Mellotron! I have that K2 album, but I didn't care for it much. Of course Allan sounds great, but the only time I've heard him not sound great was on a sad video somebody posted here of him sitting in with Zappa Plays Zappa. I was going to post something really bizarre; him and Jeff Watson (Night Ranger) jamming on "Play That Funky Music White Boy" () but it looks like it's been taken off of YT.

I love Holdsy as much as you do, it's just that his trio thing never blew me away like Brufords band.

Yeah, me neither. The one time I got to hear Bruford live, Allan was already gone and (the unkown) John Clark was playing. It was still a great concert though! As for Holdsworth playing with a trio, I'd much rather hear him with a quartet with keyboards.

As to not "wowing" me, don't worry.... very few music does nowadays

I think only women can still "wow" me, nowadays (in either the good or the bad direction)...

Wasn't worried Hughes; it's all good. Sorry not much music "wows" you nowadays, although I have to admit; I'm not as easily excited by bands/artists as I once was. Women can "wow" me too, but I have to hide that when I'm with my "significant other" or I get in big trouble.

[Phlakaton]

I'd agree that virtuosity's for virtuosity"s sake is not my thing... main reasons why I'm not really in ADM or YM....

As to not "wowing" me, don't worry.... very few music does nowadays

I think only women can still "wow" me, nowadays (in either the good or the bad direction)...

The "sound" is what kills it for me. I have this problem with a lot of contemporary sounding music. The notes are indeed wow... but the delivery is cased in that plastic package. If this was delivered inside a grotty analog package (meaning different tones and a dirty sounding rhodes or organ) then I'm in the wow category. But hey - that's what I like to hear. The music is still awesome.