Where Genesis the first prog band to go 'pop'?

[wilcox660]

I trust no one. Especially myself.

[wurz]

I'm getting tired of discussions like these and others that occassionally pop up at PE. From my opinion, being born in 1970, there was indeed a phase in popular music where many musicians either lenghtend (70s) or shortened (80s) their compositions. But many of the longer and shorter compositions still contain verses, chorussen, bridges, solos. Depending on the spirit of the day, artists were or weren't allowed (by public opinion, labels or fellow musicians) to tumble those around.

As for Genesis, I'm very fond of ATTWT (and Duke, for that matter). I also very much like Selling England, but the longest track on that, Battle of Epping Forest, is certainly not their best long track. I'd rather hear Scenes From A Night Dream, if not only for the fact that it ends sooner.

So, short or long, commercial or non-commercial, experimental or just pure popmusic. If it's good, it's good and if it's bad, it's bad.

I agree - entirely

[3LockBox]

I sometimes get the feeling that some guys want the term prog to mean "something no one else but me will like". Early Yes was full of melodies and hooks in both long and short form song. Yet all anyone wants to remember are the side-long epics. The tunes that brought Yes to the forefront were jazzy, buoyant, even ebullient, not the overreaching symphonic style that they attempted later.

Same with Genesis. Their best works, long or short form have melodies and hooks. Genesis mastered their craft and made money. So what? And Peter Gabriel continued to make sprawling epics in his solo career?

Lots of current prog bands who attempt the 20+ minute epic do so with marginal results. I'd rather that they optimized their talents than overreach for the sake of pandering to an idea of what a prog band is supposed to be. Better a song be short and great than stretched into tedium.

[trurl]

I'd love to participate in this thread but I have to, I dunno, go jerk off or something...

[Digital_Man]

I'd love to participate in this thread but I have to, I dunno, go jerk off or something...

Have fun!

[Dave (in MA)]

I'd love to participate in this thread but I have to, I dunno, go jerk off or something...

onip.png

[Progatron]

LMAO ^^

[Sunhillow]

I'd love to participate in this thread but I have to, I dunno, go jerk off or something...

Have you lost your give-o-fuck-o-meter?

[JIF]

I don't get it. People get mad at Sherry Nolan for starting numerous Flash threads about the same thing, but yet Rufus gets a pass. Seriously, how many "Mel Collins Killed Genesis" threads have to be started for this fool to get it? Btw, we aren't Genesis fanboys, Dufus(oops, I meant Rufus) we are just tried off reading "Phil Collins ruined Genesis". You even said that on the Selling England By The Pound thread. If anyone killed Genesis, it was Jonathan King when he gave them that stupid name.

[Rufus]

I don't get it. People get mad at Sherry Nolan for starting numerous Flash threads about the same thing, but yet Rufus gets a pass. Seriously, how many "Mel Collins Killed Genesis" threads have to be started for this fool to get it? Btw, we aren't Genesis fanboys, Dufus(oops, I meant Rufus) we are just tried off reading "Phil Collins ruined Genesis". You even said that on the Selling England By The Pound thread. If anyone killed Genesis, it was Jonathan King when he gave them that stupid name.

Don't throw your dummy out!!! The thread isnt neccessarily about Genesis. The OT is asking if Genesis where the first prog band to release a `pop` album?

[JIF]

Don't throw your dummy out!!! The thread isnt neccessarily about Genesis. The OT is asking if Genesis where the first prog band to release a `pop` album?

I was just addressing the fact that you don't get why you caused a stink in the Snowbound thread. It's because you continue to bash Genesis in every thread, even when that particular thread isn't about Genesis. It could be about Yes, but you would make it about Genesis by saying that Bill Bruford ruined his career by drumming on their '76 tour. Why is this hatred you have for Genesis? Seriously, take a minute and read some the responses to this thread, especially post # 29.

[PeterG]

Where Genesis the first prog band to go 'pop'?

1. Prog is not a musical genre, it is a catch-all term for a group of styles and elements used in rock/pop.
2. All rock is also pop but not vice versa.
3. Pink Floyd, Yes, Deep Purple and Genesis all STARTED off as pop bands - their debut albums provide the evidence for it.
4. "Pop" and "prog" cannot be separated from rock as specific genres, because it is simply a subjective understanding of what one is hearing, for example, several members here will hear "prog" in the music of The Strawbs, I personally don't. But I do hear proggy elements in the music of Magazine and The Stranglers.
5. For me Supertramp, Kansas, Zappa, Jethro Tull (as much as I like all of them) were never prog. It is all very individual.

[PeterG]

People would probably say bands like Supertramp and Saga had gone more pop than ATTWT was at the time.

I would definitely agree with that for 1978 and also add Kansas and.....hello....Love Beach...ELP

[JIF]

Didn't Starcastle go pop at the end of '77 with the release Citadel? Btw, when I first read the thread title, I thought that Rufus wanted to know when did Genesis first go poop.

[JIF]

5. For me Supertramp, Kansas, Zappa, Jethro Tull (as much as I like all of them) were never prog. It is all very individual.

So, Styx is prog then?

[PeterG]

So, Styx is prog then?

Pluto is no longer a planet.....THAT is a disconnected as your response to me.

Seriously man, what does "So, Styx is prog then?" have to do with what I wrote?

[JIF]

Pluto is no longer a planet.....THAT is a disconnected as your response to me.

Seriously man, what does "So, Styx is prog then?" have to do with what I wrote?

You said that Kansas wasn't prog. Many people have said that they are prog. People on here have said that Pink Floyd isn't prog. There has been discussion(even on PE) if Styx is prog or not. Since you didn't mention them, do you think that they are prog?

[lazland]

I'm getting tired of discussions like these and others that occassionally pop up at PE. From my opinion, being born in 1970, there was indeed a phase in popular music where many musicians either lenghtend (70s) or shortened (80s) their compositions. But many of the longer and shorter compositions still contain verses, chorussen, bridges, solos. Depending on the spirit of the day, artists were or weren't allowed (by public opinion, labels or fellow musicians) to tumble those around.

As for Genesis, I'm very fond of ATTWT (and Duke, for that matter). I also very much like Selling England, but the longest track on that, Battle of Epping Forest, is certainly not their best long track. I'd rather hear Scenes From A Night Dream, if not only for the fact that it ends sooner.

So, short or long, commercial or non-commercial, experimental or just pure popmusic. If it's good, it's good and if it's bad, it's bad.

This should be placed at the top of every single prog rock website. It is so correct, further comment is not required.

[PeterG]

Since you didn't mention them, do you think that they are prog?

MY GOD! Really? You think that I THINK that EVERY band I DIDN'T mention is prog simply because I didn't mention them??? The notion of listing a few examples of something to make a point (i.e. as I did with Supertramp, Kansas, Tull, Zappa) cannot possibly be an alien concept to you nor that such lists are never exhaustive, they provide just a few examples of a type. There are thousands of bands that I don't think are prog but I'm not going to list them ALL!

But for the record, no, I do not think Styx is prog. For me prog is a specific sounding product of a band not the band itself.
So for example, for me, Meddle was a prog album but The Wall wasn't.

[PeterG]

I'm getting tired of discussions like these and others that occassionally pop up at PE. From my opinion, being born in 1970, there was indeed a phase in popular music where many musicians either lenghtend (70s) or shortened (80s) their compositions. But many of the longer and shorter compositions still contain verses, chorussen, bridges, solos. Depending on the spirit of the day, artists were or weren't allowed (by public opinion, labels or fellow musicians) to tumble those around.

As for Genesis, I'm very fond of ATTWT (and Duke, for that matter). I also very much like Selling England, but the longest track on that, Battle of Epping Forest, is certainly not their best long track. I'd rather hear Scenes From A Night Dream, if not only for the fact that it ends sooner.

So, short or long, commercial or non-commercial, experimental or just pure popmusic. If it's good, it's good and if it's bad, it's bad.

In full agreement with that. Well put!

[martiprog]

As the term "Pop" is an abbreviation of "popular music", which itself is a misnomer given that it was coined around 50-odd years ago to refer to "modern" popular music, then Genesis have in the widest sense always been a pop band. Pop has since come to describe a narrower spectrum of music, but, like the term "prog", it is a subjective term, with no clear boundary. I'd rather listen to a finely crafted gem of a song that lasts 3 minutes than a 20 minute epic which was devoid of all emotion and filled with lumpy "prog" clichés.

If a song sounds great at 3 minutes, let it be (sic) 3 minutes. If it works best at 35 minutes, it should be 35 minutes. As long as it comes from the writers' heart(s), then it is valid. There have been many great "prog" hit singles from the likes of Tull, Floyd, Moody Blues, ELO, Kansas (yes, I know!), Marillion, Yes, The Beatles, Focus (oh yes they are) and loads of others.

Like Sunhillow says, if it's good, it's good. Just because it doesn't fit in with a preconception of what a prog song allegedly should be, doesn't mean it's wrong/bad.

Having said that, it would not worry me if I never heard "whodunit" again ;-)

[Brian Griffin]

This should be placed at the top of every single prog rock website. It is so correct, further comment is not required.

Along with this

Early Yes was full of melodies and hooks in both long and short form song. Yet all anyone wants to remember are the side-long epics. The tunes that brought Yes to the forefront were jazzy, buoyant, even ebullient, not the overreaching symphonic style that they attempted later.

Same with Genesis. Their best works, long or short form have melodies and hooks. Genesis mastered their craft and made money. So what? And Peter Gabriel continued to make sprawling epics in his solo career?

Lots of current prog bands who attempt the 20+ minute epic do so with marginal results. I'd rather that they optimized their talents than overreach for the sake of pandering to an idea of what a prog band is supposed to be. Better a song be short and great than stretched into tedium.

So spot on it almost hurts - it's the songs within the songs that make the great epics great

BG

[PeterG]

As the term "Pop" is an abbreviation of "popular music", which itself is a misnomer given that it was coined around 50-odd years ago to refer to "modern" popular music, then Genesis have in the widest sense always been a pop band. Pop has since come to describe a narrower spectrum of music, but, like the term "prog", it is a subjective term, with no clear boundary. I'd rather listen to a finely crafted gem of a song that lasts 3 minutes than a 20 minute epic which was devoid of all emotion and filled with lumpy "prog" clichés.

If a song sounds great at 3 minutes, let it be (sic) 3 minutes. If it works best at 35 minutes, it should be 35 minutes. As long as it comes from the writers' heart(s), then it is valid. There have been many great "prog" hit singles from the likes of Tull, Floyd, Moody Blues, ELO, Kansas (yes, I know!), Marillion, Yes, The Beatles, Focus (oh yes they are) and loads of others.

Like Sunhillow says, if it's good, it's good. Just because it doesn't fit in with a preconception of what a prog song allegedly should be, doesn't mean it's wrong/bad.

Having said that, it would not worry me if I never heard "whodunit" again ;-)

While I agree with most of what you said, I must pick you up on just one aspect, and it is this , the whole "if it's good,it's good and if it's bad, it's bad" argument, that too is also a purely subjective approach, which differs from person to person.

The only truly objective response to any music or when providing a description when asked about a band is to first describe the music in comparative terms then to say either "I like it " or I don't like it". Judgements of quality are not required.

[Brian Griffin]

The entire first side of Tales from Topographic Oceans is pop, according to Jon Anderson!

And he is, of course, right

There are 45's / pop tunes within, woven together

Supper's Ready as well

BG

[Progatron]

MY GOD! Really? You think that I THINK that EVERY band I DIDN'T mention is prog simply because I didn't mention them???

You're wasting your time, man. Might as well argue with a brick wall.

And he is, of course, right

There are 45's / pop tunes within, woven together

Supper's Ready as well

Can't really get my head around the idea of "Revealing Science" being entirely woven of pop songs. Or at least, I've never thought about it that way. Makes me want to put it on to see if I can hear it! As for "Supper's Ready", I doubt "Apocalypse In 9/8" was a smash hit on AM radio.