J.S. Bach: Modern instrumentation or Baroque Period Music?

[N_Singh]

I have been listening nonstop to the Bach Cantatas (Suzuki). Epic, beautiful music beyond words. Who has produced your favorite rendition of these? I just ordered a 72 cd box for $76 on Amazon.

I'm also curious about any recommendations as to the Mass in B minor. There's a ton of recordings out there. Which one is your favorite? My issue is: what does it mean to listen to Bach with modern instruments as opposed to the instruments of his time? Going beyond harpsichord and piano distinctions.

Quite humbly: the greatest composer of Western art music.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on him, his music, what he represents, how you listen to him, etc?

I'm like a kid in a candy store right now. I're pretty much dropped listening to all jazz and rock and gone on a Bach crazed musical orgy.

[Progatron]

I just ordered a 72 cd box

Holy shit!!!

[Jubal]

Greatest classical composer to be sure.
One thing many people do not know about Bach was that one of his jobs was to test pipe organs at various churches. This involved extensive travel for an age when a horse and wagon was pretty much your swiftest mode of transport.
Bach became very adept at improvisation while doing this. His job was to see what a pipe organ could and could not due. He usually had someone listening mainly to take note of any major rattling of windows and structure of the building. Some rooms were especially sensitive to certain notes. This information would be passed on the the choirmaster or music director so they could avoid playing in keys where major building resonance could become a problem.
Musicologists have speculated that Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor may have been born from his many improvisational sessions. Certainly, it is often used by organists today when trying out a new console/pipe system.
There are very few I would place alongside JS. Handel was one who may have edged him out in brilliance with Messiah and Water Music. He certainly did not match his prolific output.

One of the best tributes to Bach is Whiter Shade of Pale by Procol Harum. It is based on Bach's "Air On a G String", one of Bach's most sublime works ever.

[nosebone]

The sonatas and partitas for violin sound great on the guitar.

I've been reading out of that book forever.

[Facelift]

Period instruments, for sure.

Except for solo keyboard works, which IMO sound best when played on Glen Gould's specially rigged piano. And played by Gould, of course.

[Soc Prof]

I've heard people defend the use of modern instruments by arguing that baroque music was flexible, with musicians using whatever was available to them. However, my ears prefer period instruments.

[N_Singh]

The sonatas and partitas for violin sound great on the guitar.

I've been reading out of that book forever.

I watched a great master class by Sid Jacobs on counterpoint on guitar where he said he he always had two things handy that always gave him a treasure trove of ideas to steal from: Bach's Partitas and the Bird Omnibook. The "two B's" he called em.

Great master class, BTW. Forces you to really get your 3rds/10ths down pat without thinking, as well as the reverse (diatonic 6ths/13ths), and use approach tones/embellishment that are either chromatic below and/or a scale step above. Here's the preview.

[Oreb]

I have been listening nonstop to the Bach Cantatas (Suzuki). Epic, beautiful music beyond words. Who has produced your favorite rendition of these?

I've been working my way through Gardiner's complete set which came out late last year. While I like a lot of the Suzuki I've heard, IMO his vocalists are not up to the quality of the Monteverdi Choir and soloists working with Gardiner and for that reason I tend to prefer his approach.

I'm also curious about any recommendations as to the Mass in B minor. There's a ton of recordings out there. Which one is your favorite?

This and the Matthew Passion are IMO supreme masterpieces: no single recording can suffice for either of them.

I would not want to be without the Klemperer recordings of both, even though many original instrument purists consider them unlistenable. I think they are profoundly moving.

At the opposite extreme, but still essential IMO are the very stripped down recordings by the Dunedin Consort under John Butt.

My current favourite Matthew Passion is the recent recording by Renee Jacobs. This is intensely dramatic but always reverent: a very difficult balance to attain.

Gardiner is good on both, and in some ways a very safe recommendation, but I'm not sure they are characterful enough to be 'great'.

I don't care for the Suzuki versions of either: again, his vocalists are weak.

what does it mean to listen to Bach with modern instruments as opposed to the instruments of his time?

Not something I get hung up on: there are magnificent recordings from both camps and Bach is way too great to be captured in just one interpretation!

[N_Singh]

Thanks, Oreb. I'll check those versions out!

[Koreabruce]

Depends on my mood. I'm simply glad we can have both period instrument recordings and more modern adaptations side-by-side. Sometimes when the mood strikes, I'll want to hear the pieces on period instruments; sometimes I prefer the 100+ piece orchestra, 100+ voice choir bombast, or alternate coloration, or simply unique experiences provided by more unconventional readings.

The English conductor Sir Thomas Beecham caused some controversy in certain circles by writing in modern instrumentation for Messiah, but the results are, to my ears, pretty impressive. In fact, this version (from the late 1940's/early 1950's) was the first one I knew thanks to my dad, who dearly loved this particular reading. Thus, when Christopher Hogwood's period instruments version came out in the 1980's, it was a pure revelation. (We still have an old VHS video of that at home). It was a shock to realize how comparatively small the instrumental and vocal forces were (and a bit disconcerting for my younger self to see those men singing soprano), but that's how it was "back in their day". For a long while after Hogwood's venture and those of others who played the "original instruments only" card, I couldn't bring myself to hear Beecham's version. Then in the early 2000's, I sat down and gave it a fresh listen and was genuinely surprised at how much I enjoyed the non-conventional take on it. I love both versions, each for what it is, not for what it isn't or "should be." Music, I believe, should not be forced to conform to strictures; "old war horses" can hit us in remarkably refreshing ways simply through being approached from a different angle. And therein lies the beauty of it all.

[chalkpie]

Suzuki and Eliot Gardiner.

You're on the wrong forum to post this question, unless you want 10 responses.

Go join www.talkclassical.com forum - you'll get hundreds of responses. TC is the PE of the classical world.

[Rarebird]

Suzuki and Eliot Gardiner.

You're on the wrong forum to post this question, unless you want 10 responses.

Go join www.talkclassical.com forum - you'll get hundreds of responses. TC is the PE of the classical world.

I suppose the author wants answers from people who also love classical music and not from classical music purists.

I love some Bach occasionally. Wether I prefer original instruments or not, actually I don't mind. I also love the stuff Wendy Carlos did.

[2ndsout]

For me, the intro to Bach's music was as a kid in the 1970s when my father would spin on the reel to reel the now classic Switched on Bach by a then Walter Carlos, in conjunction with Robert Moog. Originally released in 1968- it set the standard for the use of the Moog Synthesizer. This is how I was introduced to his music and I have enjoyed many different renditions of his music played by orchestras since then...

If you haven't heard it, here is Wendy's page about S-O-B
http://www.wendycarlos.com/+sob.html

[Casey]

Apart from the Pink Floyd Astronomy Domine-Saucerful of Secrets-Interstellar Overdrive era, Baroque music is my absolute favorite. There's something about the tight knit & repetitive syncopations that appeals to me.

I cannot speak as to favorite performers or recordings but I shall side with period instruments. Every time I hear a Back piece played on piano I immediately think "piano wasn't invented in Bach's day."

[2ndsout]

Apart from the Pink Floyd Astronomy Domine-Saucerful of Secrets-Interstellar Overdrive era, Baroque music is my absolute favorite. There's something about the tight knit & repetitive syncopations that appeals to me.

I cannot speak as to favorite performers or recordings but I shall side with period instruments. Every time I hear a Back piece played on piano I immediately think "piano wasn't invented in Bach's day."

I beg to differ. The piano itself came into being in the late 1600s to the early 1700s and one of the first modern style pianos was created by an Italian named Bartolomeo Cristofori (1655–1731) of Padua, Italy, with the first one built around 1700...

Bach was alive between 1685-1750... so he was well aware of the piano, as well as Beethoven and Vivaldi who were both alive around the same time frame composing music.

[arturs]

Greatest classical composer to be sure.
One thing many people do not know about Bach was that one of his jobs was to test pipe organs at various churches. This involved extensive travel for an age when a horse and wagon was pretty much your swiftest mode of transport.
Bach became very adept at improvisation while doing this. His job was to see what a pipe organ could and could not due. He usually had someone listening mainly to take note of any major rattling of windows and structure of the building. Some rooms were especially sensitive to certain notes. This information would be passed on the the choirmaster or music director so they could avoid playing in keys where major building resonance could become a problem.

I did not know this. Sounds like it would have been a great experience to hear. Anyone got any ROIOs to share?

[Jubal]

Here is an example of Tocatta on "modern" instrumentation:

[Dodie]

Baroque music is actually my main passion. Prog is the fun stuff for the car and when I want to let my hair down a bit :-)

So, speaking as an original instrument purist (and completely unapologetic about it), I wouldn't go for Klemperer in the Mass in B minor. Stately and sombre, yes, but I think Bach's music is much more life-affirming and versatile than some of those old-school performances.

I'm glad Suzuki's cantatas are getting some praise here. I think they're actually the most consistently beautiful and well-judged of all the complete cantata cycles. Harnoncourt/Leonhardt was ground-breaking but rather patchy (I prefer Leonhardt's volumes to Harnoncourt's), Koopman too mercurial and over-elaborated for my taste (and with some solo singers I don't really much care for), and Gardiner's live 2000 cycle can be tremendously wonderful but all feels a bit self-consciously dictated too by the conductor at times (and I prefer a more minimal approach to Bach's earlier pre-Leipzig cantatas, such as the wonderful recordings by The Ricercar Consort).

For the Matthew Passion, I'd go for several other versions over the recent Rene Jacobs one (which is ok, but I was disappointed by the soloists, and I'm often vexed by Jacobs as a conductor - occasionally brilliant but often irritating to me). I think Gardiner, Harnoncourt's last version, Suzuki, the Netherlands Bach Society (dir. Jos van Veldhoven) and the Dunedin Consort (dir. John Butt) are all special. Really, I don't need to pick single versions when I'm so happy living with wonderful different ones.

For the Mass in B minor, I'm very fond of Andrew Parrott's innovative one-voice-per-part version, and also the Dunedin Consort's similar approach is essential listening too. Cantus Coelln is interesting too, though the singers aren't so good in the arias as they are in the small-scale choruses. For the bigger-scale choir and period-instrument band, I think it's hard to beat Freider Bernius and his Stuttgart team of musicians, although Gardiner, Suzuki and Herreweghe's most recent version (the third time he's recorded the work) are all superb too.

A few pedantic but friendly responses to some points above:
1) I wouldn't actually say Bach was all that more prolific than Handel (arguably my favourite composer, if it's possible to just have one - which it isn't; I adore Monteverdi, Purcell, Charpentier, Alessandro Scarlatti, Vivaldi, Rameau, etc.). Bach wrote more organ music and Lutheran church music, sure. But Handel was consistently prolific at theatre music, which Bach never touched. Moreover, I think Handel's finest masterpieces aren't necessarily the most commonly-known works, but probably compositions such as the serious opera Tamerlano, the lighter comic opera Serse, the Miltonic ode L'Allegro, the classical drama Semele, the tragic oratorio Theodora, etc. Moreover, much as though The Water Music is charming stuff, Handel's greatest orchestral music is definitely his Op. 6 concerti grossi.
2) Actually, scholars think Bach didn't compose the famous Toccata and Fugue in D minor; it's unlikely to be by Bach, and it's true authorship is unproven. That's not to say it isn't a thrilling piece, though!
3) Cristofori worked in Florence, if I remember rightly. I think his first piano is something like 1719, isn't it? Bach was aware of the piano some years later, towards the end of his life - by which time he'd written almost all of his keyboard music already. An eyewitness reports seeing Handel play on a friend's piano, but the composer himself never owned one. It is true to say that none of the late baroque composers who wrote keyboard music had the early fortepianos in mind. I don't mind Bach played on the modern grand piano at all, but recognise that it is an absolutely anachronistic thing to do.

[Reid]

I suppose the author wants answers from people who also love classical music and not from classical music purists.

There's quite a diverse cross section of members at the Talk Classical Forum. Not just purists. I've been turned onto loads of great music over there. As for Bach, I have some of Philippe Herreweghe's recordings on Harmonia Mundi.

[chalkpie]

I suppose the author wants answers from people who also love classical music and not from classical music purists.

I love some Bach occasionally. Wether I prefer original instruments or not, actually I don't mind. I also love the stuff Wendy Carlos did.

There are few folks over at TC that also dig FZ, Cow, UZ, etc. OK, so maybe in ADDITION he can post at TC. Better? He will get a lot more mileage on subjects like this. I bet there is already a thread on this very subject over there. Great place, and like here you have the neo-prog guys (Mozart, Haydn) and the hardcore wackjobs (Xenakis, Stockhausen) and everything in between

[chalkpie]

Sort of O/T, but I am teaching the Cello Suite No. 3 prelude transcribed for viola to a private student right now. Great, great piece.

[chalkpie]

Baroque music is actually my main passion. Prog is the fun stuff for the car and when I want to let my hair down a bit :-)

So, speaking as an original instrument purist (and completely unapologetic about it), I wouldn't go for Klemperer in the Mass in B minor. Stately and sombre, yes, but I think Bach's music is much more life-affirming and versatile than some of those old-school performances.

I'm glad Suzuki's cantatas are getting some praise here. I think they're actually the most consistently beautiful and well-judged of all the complete cantata cycles. Harnoncourt/Leonhardt was ground-breaking but rather patchy (I prefer Leonhardt's volumes to Harnoncourt's), Koopman too mercurial and over-elaborated for my taste (and with some solo singers I don't really much care for), and Gardiner's live 2000 cycle can be tremendously wonderful but all feels a bit self-consciously dictated too by the conductor at times (and I prefer a more minimal approach to Bach's earlier pre-Leipzig cantatas, such as the wonderful recordings by The Ricercar Consort).

For the Matthew Passion, I'd go for several other versions over the recent Rene Jacobs one (which is ok, but I was disappointed by the soloists, and I'm often vexed by Jacobs as a conductor - occasionally brilliant but often irritating to me). I think Gardiner, Harnoncourt's last version, Suzuki, the Netherlands Bach Society (dir. Jos van Veldhoven) and the Dunedin Consort (dir. John Butt) are all special. Really, I don't need to pick single versions when I'm so happy living with wonderful different ones.

For the Mass in B minor, I'm very fond of Andrew Parrott's innovative one-voice-per-part version, and also the Dunedin Consort's similar approach is essential listening too. Cantus Coelln is interesting too, though the singers aren't so good in the arias as they are in the small-scale choruses. For the bigger-scale choir and period-instrument band, I think it's hard to beat Freider Bernius and his Stuttgart team of musicians, although Gardiner, Suzuki and Herreweghe's most recent version (the third time he's recorded the work) are all superb too.

A few pedantic but friendly responses to some points above:
1) I wouldn't actually say Bach was all that more prolific than Handel (arguably my favourite composer, if it's possible to just have one - which it isn't; I adore Monteverdi, Purcell, Charpentier, Alessandro Scarlatti, Vivaldi, Rameau, etc.). Bach wrote more organ music and Lutheran church music, sure. But Handel was consistently prolific at theatre music, which Bach never touched. Moreover, I think Handel's finest masterpieces aren't necessarily the most commonly-known works, but probably compositions such as the serious opera Tamerlano, the lighter comic opera Serse, the Miltonic ode L'Allegro, the classical drama Semele, the tragic oratorio Theodora, etc. Moreover, much as though The Water Music is charming stuff, Handel's greatest orchestral music is definitely his Op. 6 concerti grossi.
2) Actually, scholars think Bach didn't compose the famous Toccata and Fugue in D minor; it's unlikely to be by Bach, and it's true authorship is unproven. That's not to say it isn't a thrilling piece, though!
3) Cristofori worked in Florence, if I remember rightly. I think his first piano is something like 1719, isn't it? Bach was aware of the piano some years later, towards the end of his life - by which time he'd written almost all of his keyboard music already. An eyewitness reports seeing Handel play on a friend's piano, but the composer himself never owned one. It is true to say that none of the late baroque composers who wrote keyboard music had the early fortepianos in mind. I don't mind Bach played on the modern grand piano at all, but recognise that it is an absolutely anachronistic thing to do.

Great post man. I was in the dark with Suzuki until I started listening to his recordings on Spotify. Never knew about the Toccata conspiracy, strange!

Are you hip to BWV 140? I have that on my Spot playlist - have heard it a bunch of times since around Christmas. Just when you think the chorales are unbeatable, he hits you with equally amazing arias. He is pretty ridiculous.

[progmatist]

I like the Brandenburg Concertos myself. Then of course, there's the one collection of pieces that changed music forever: The Well Tempered Clavier Book I. Prior to that, instrumental music was only composed in 5 major keys...C, G, F, D and Bb...and 5 minor keys...Am, Em, Dm, Bm and Gm.

[Rarebird]

I beg to differ. The piano itself came into being in the late 1600s to the early 1700s and one of the first modern style pianos was created by an Italian named Bartolomeo Cristofori (1655–1731) of Padua, Italy, with the first one built around 1700...

Bach was alive between 1685-1750... so he was well aware of the piano, as well as Beethoven and Vivaldi who were both alive around the same time frame composing music.

I'm not sure about that. I think the first forte piano's were around in the time of Mozart.

[Dodie]

Are you hip to BWV 140?

I've got a few recordings, and it's one of the most famous cantatas - but it hasn't yet become one of my favourites.
I've got a soft spot for the Weimar cantatas, like Actus Tragicus (BWV 106), Christen, ätzet diesen Tag (BWV 63), Mein herz schwimmt im blut (BWV 199), Ich hatte viel Bekummernis (BWV 21). But my absolute favourites are the solo cantatas, such as Ich habe genug (BWV 82) and Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust (BWV 170)

The Brandenburg Concertos are fantastic, of course. Lots of great versions, but I really like the recent one by John Butt and the Dunedin Consort. Also looking forward to the new one coming soon from the Freiburger Barockorchester.