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Thread: Has the Prog Epic run it's course?

  1. #101
    These folks would like to have a word with all of you, when intermission starts:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...dXiN_blog.html

    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
    https://battema.bandcamp.com/

    Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com

  2. #102
    facetious maximus Yves's Avatar
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    ...and that's just his extended version of 4:33.
    "Corn Flakes pissed in. You ranted. Mission accomplished. Thread closed."

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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    These folks would like to have a word with all of you, when intermission starts:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...dXiN_blog.html

    The interesting thing about stuff like that is that I'm far more entertained by the concept of the thing than I every would be about the actual thing.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    One thing this thread tells me is not to invite Mike Rutherford to a party. If there is anyone who exemplifies "wet blanket", it's him.
    I think it is reasonable that an artist is critical of work that he is directly involved in. Would you feel better of him if he was gushing about the Lamb?

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Most epics aren't real musical ideas carried out over 10+ minutes, they're just a bunch of individual songs that happen to segue, with some kind of reprise at the end to make it seem like it was all one song.
    If you insert "symphonic rock" before "epics" in your sentence, then I perfectly agree with you - but then again "symphonic rock" arguably constitutes the least musically vital part of the "progressive" spectrum nowadays and thus is all the more depressing to note as being alluded to represent the whole of it (which it certainly does NOT and has never done). Move away from the contrived restraints of said style, and there are plenty of exciting "epics" being made by current, ongoing artists.
    Last edited by Scrotum Scissor; 01-30-2014 at 02:14 PM.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    If you insert "symphonic rock" before "epics" in your sentence, then I perfectly agree with you - but then again "symphonic rock" arguably constitutes the least musically vital part of the "progressive" spectrum and thus is all the more depressing to note as being alluded to represent the whole of it (which it certainly dies NOT and has never done). Move away from the contrived restraints of said style, and there are plenty of exciting "epics" being made by current, ongoing artists.
    I guess... but, for example, I would be I'm hesitant to call a 25-minute performance of something improvisational to be an "epic." Ditto something minimalistic/electronic.

    Perhaps we're just thinking of different things. I had always thought that the term "epic" as applied to long progressive rock concept pieces was derivative of the romantic/classical meaning of the term, which I believe derived from the "epic" poem. To that end, while I suppose I wasn't consciously thinking that a hard-and-fast rule applied, I've generally associated "epic" prog rock pieces as falling more or less within the symph-prog or prog-metal parameters. They're long story-songs, or program music. The extent to which they resemble either classical works on one hand or broadway showtunes on the other is a matter of the talents and ambitions of the bands involved. I'm loath to just call any long performance of music an "epic."

    But if that's what we're doing, then I would definitely agree with you.

  7. #107
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    indeed Mr. Scissors, one of the first (if not *the* first) Prog epics was by an Afro Prog band, not a Symph Prog band. There are epics by Zuehl bands and Fusion bands and Canterbury bands and Spacerock bands too
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I guess... but, for example, I would be I'm hesitant to call a 25-minute performance of something improvisational to be an "epic." Ditto something minimalistic/electronic. [...] Perhaps we're just thinking of different things. I had always thought that the term "epic" as applied to long progressive rock concept pieces was derivative of the romantic/classical meaning of the term, which I believe derived from the "epic" poem.
    I wasn't necessarily thinking of "improvisational" or "electronic" or "minimalist" at all - just something altogether different from the cliched predictabilities of the "sympho" notion. The term "epic" as alluded to rock music has been in constant use by critics and listeners with little or no affiliation to progressive varieties, mostly to denote works that somehow break away from binary structure and exceed a certain length (6-7 minutes or more).

    As for the formalities of "symphonic rock", most of it comes to nothing when considering that the "composer's" tools were never as equally formal as his obvious goals - i.e. that pieces are allegedly "written" while actually being, as you so eloquently put it, arrangements and variations on individual tunes and themes set together with the hope of not sounding too random. And then to be added with an extra song or two if it doesn't clock in at the right spot.

    There have been some great epics in the (give or take) "symph" rock section in recent years (Advent, Discipline, The Undergound Railroad come to mind), but most of what I hear are flat, tedious renditions of "songs" that could just as easily have stood apart and wouldn't have either suffered or benefitted from it. And interspersing those tunes with pseudo-dissonant trickery to open for the next pomp song doesn't save the attempted "formality" of such "pieces".
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    If you insert "symphonic rock" before "epics" in your sentence, then I perfectly agree with you - but then again "symphonic rock" arguably constitutes the least musically vital part of the "progressive" spectrum nowadays and thus is all the more depressing to note as being alluded to represent the whole of it (which it certainly does NOT and has never done). Move away from the contrived restraints of said style, and there are plenty of exciting "epics" being made by current, ongoing artists.
    I mostly agree with this.

    Most of the comments up until now, seem to be talking about symph in the context of epics, without consideration for other forms of progressive music.

    There are avant-prog bands, prog-metal, fusion, creating long pieces without a drop of the symph style (Transatlantic, Flower Kings) that most are referring to.

    But even referring to the symph style, I am still perfectly okay with epics. There is so much to be done with; themes, melodies, chord changes, time signature changes, etc in a long form piece that can't be done in short songs.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  10. #110
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    I think what some people are saying is that the Flower Kings/Neal Morse/Transatlantic type epics have run their course. I got bored with those groups years ago.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Patelena396 View Post
    I think it is reasonable that an artist is critical of work that he is directly involved in. Would you feel better of him if he was gushing about the Lamb?
    I've read and seen many interviews with Rutherford. He comes across as simply being a negative person. As to your other point, I think that sometimes an artist can be far too critical of their own work.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    If you insert "symphonic rock" before "epics" in your sentence, then I perfectly agree with you - but then again "symphonic rock" arguably constitutes the least musically vital part of the "progressive" spectrum nowadays and thus is all the more depressing to note as being alluded to represent the whole of it (which it certainly does NOT and has never done). Move away from the contrived restraints of said style, and there are plenty of exciting "epics" being made by current, ongoing artists.
    I get what you are saying, but question your comment about Symphonic Rock "arguably" being "the least musically vital part of the progressive spectrum". In what way? If sales and press are any indication, I would say that symphonic prog is still the most vital part of the progressive spectrum. Most of the biggest and most talked about bands in the genre still fall under this umbrella to one extreme or another. I would say that a large part of the prog fanbase still finds symphonic rock to be "vital".

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    I've read and seen many interviews with Rutherford. He comes across as simply being a negative person. As to your other point, I think that sometimes an artist can be far too critical of their own work.
    I never saw an extreme negativity with Rutherford, but things are sometimes different in the eye of the beholder. I agree that it can be disappointing to see an artist bash their own work. Especially if it is something that I am a fan of. That said, seeing them rave about something in an extreme way can come off as arrogant as well.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Patelena396 View Post
    I [...] question your comment about Symphonic Rock "arguably" being "the least musically vital part of the progressive spectrum". In what way? If sales and press are any indication, I would say that symphonic prog is still the most vital part of the progressive spectrum. Most of the biggest and most talked about bands in the genre still fall under this umbrella to one extreme or another. I would say that a large part of the prog fanbase still finds symphonic rock to be "vital".
    On the contrary, most "big" and/ or "talked about" bands and artists in the "genre" come from within the realms of metal, post-rock or independent/alternative pop/rock; whether or not this happens within the "fanbase" is not of particular interest - it's the actual music that decides. Dream Theater and Mastodon fans are mostly metal buffs, Radiohead/Elbow/Muse/Tool/Mars Volta (etc.) fans consider themselves indie listeners, Sigur Rós/Tortoise/GY!BE enthusiasts rarely look upon themselves as "prog fans" - although the music practically and historically defines them as such. Give or take, but Spock/Flower/Trans etc. hardly make for active musical assets outside of the internally defined and limited "proggy-prog" confinement, and are only very rarely mentioned outside of niche media.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    On the contrary, most "big" and/ or "talked about" bands and artists in the "genre" come from within the realms of metal, post-rock or independent/alternative pop/rock; whether or not this happens within the "fanbase" is not of particular interest - it's the actual music that decides. Dream Theater and Mastodon fans are mostly metal buffs, Radiohead/Elbow/Muse/Tool/Mars Volta (etc.) fans consider themselves indie listeners, Sigur Rós/Tortoise/GY!BE enthusiasts rarely look upon themselves as "prog fans" - although the music practically and historically defines them as such. Give or take, but Spock/Flower/Trans etc. hardly make for active musical assets outside of the internally defined and limited "proggy-prog" confinement, and are only very rarely mentioned outside of niche media.
    As you stated though, most of the bands that you mention are not clearly recognized as part of the Prog genre. My comment was more directed at the most recognized and most popular of the artists who are firmly rooted as Prog. I would argue that a band like Transatlantic gets a lot more attention and probably sells more CDs than pretty much most other bands that are embraced by Prog fans and call themselves Prog.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Patelena396 View Post
    As you stated though, most of the bands that you mention are not clearly recognized as part of the Prog genre. My comment was more directed at the most recognized and most popular of the artists who are firmly rooted as Prog. I would argue that a band like Transatlantic gets a lot more attention and probably sells more CDs than pretty much most other bands that are embraced by Prog fans and call themselves Prog.
    Yes, that figures - but the condition of your argument then seems to rest on open ground, seeing how there's no single determination as to what the alleged "prog genre" implies. Historically speaking, progressive rock was/alluded to exactly that, and thus became defined through constitutions of virtue as musical concept - it was not a "sound" or a "template" or even a given aesthetic, but an idiom of approach to creativity. You can not take Transatlantic into retroactive mode as harbinger of definition, when the semantical expression itself was developed 40+ years ago to denote something quite different altogether. Whether or not "fans of the prog genre" think this or that about artists who naturally do not sound like Genesis/Yes but who perhaps DO carry the virtues of those and more advanced acts of their time, remains utterly irrelevant - again: it's the actual music that defines the language by which it is described, not the other way around.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  17. #117
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    I can see the term "epic" does seem to be used most often to refer the "proggy prog" type of progressive rock. And for that reason I'm not really fond of the term - it's just an easy to use shorthand. My comments in this thread were intended differently though. They were intended to include other possibilities beyond the symphonic...which is why I don't think "epics" have run their course. Not to imply there are no frontiers left for the symphonic ones of course.
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