Totally agree. Steve being mixed low (for whatever reason) does not equate the whole having a poor mix. Aside from turning Hackett up, that mix has ballsOriginally Posted by JeffCarney
Totally agree. Steve being mixed low (for whatever reason) does not equate the whole having a poor mix. Aside from turning Hackett up, that mix has balls
Great album, but being an avid collector of live Genesis for more than half my life, the official live releases are of little consequence to me. This one in particular does sound very good though. "Firth Of Fifth" is so powerful... that instrumental section, Steve's solo, the bass pedals and the dual drumming behind it all is about as perfect a live presence as they ever achieved.
I never cared for the post-Gabriel versions of "Carpet Crawlers". Although Phil sings it nicely, it's hard to overlook the omission of the opening verse, which recalls the melody from the bridge of the Lamb title track. As for leaving off "Inside And Out", well that comes as no surprise. It was hardly a well-known track.
Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.
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Really? You think they cut off their nose to spite their face? Oh yeah, let's just sabotage this recording because Steve's got problems. Yep, that makes sense.
I've always felt that just how low Hackett is in the mix has become greatly exaggerated.
Hackett used volume pedal very effectively and even on boots, it's evident that during stuff like "Carpet Crawlers" he would really play in a manner where the guitar was almost like a distant effect. The album depicts this.
People hear some comment by Banks about how they "mixed him out of the album" and run with it, so it becomes a far bigger issue than it ever really was. I mean, if you can't hear him during his solo on "Firth of Fifth," there is something not adding up.
Anyway ... I don't suspect it was "spiteful" so much as being sonically aware that Steve Hackett was leaving. With the live album being finalized, they decided to take his role down a notch because their brand was going to be changing. To make the other components of their sound that much more prominent was simply preparation for how they were about to sound without him. I think it was done pretty tastefully and he's still a part of this album.
Found a used CD set years ago. I'm not a big fan of live albums but at the time I felt I needed at least one live album from all these prog groups I was into, and I liked that Supper's Ready was on there too. Been years since I've played it but I do like it.
If I ever did feel like the guitar was lacking in the mix on SO, it's probably because I was used to the mix of Genesis Live, which is a much more, for lack of a better term, "live" sounding live album. But to compare the level of Hackett's solo on Firth of Fifth, (which is one spot I could possibly want more power on), to, for example, that on Musical Box on GL is to compare apples to oranges in a way; they're two completely different kinds of solos.
This is an interesting view, and something I hadn't considered before. I'm not sure I can buy into that level of forethought, though.
David
Happy with what I have to be happy with.
mmmhhh!!!.. I don't dislike W&W, but it was their weakest album since Tresspass... Though it's still a classic , especially compared to what Yes, ELP, Procol, Moodies and Tull were doing in those years
Indeed... it was outstanding (even given the low Hackett mix) , but let's face it, it may not be as touched over as JP 's Unleashed In The Studios, but SO was redone at places
Well, they couldn't have done otherwise than let Hackett's Firth solo very audible, could they?
I also buy that Banks was a little miffed at Hackett leaving the band... Indeed, they'd fucked up a bit by frustrating Steve with almost no credits on TOTT, so when Steve voiced his opinion, Tony gave him plenty of place in W&W to accomodate him... Apparently, it wasn't enough for Hackett and left anyway.... Obviously (to me anyway) Banks must've resented his departure, and little doubt that this downmix was a "low blow" vengeance.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
What level of forethought would it have taken?This is an interesting view, and something I hadn't considered before. I'm not sure I can buy into that level of forethought, though.
Guitarist of the last six years is leaving and we're in the middle of mixing a live album. We're going to carry on without him so ...
Sounds like a five minute discussion to me.
I seem to remember in my readings of the band that Hackett leaving was more trouble for the band's future than Gabe's did...
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
Either your memory doesn't serve you well or you have read some truly twisted accounts of Genesis history.
I never even noticed the whole 'Steve Hackett is too low in the mix' business until seeing it mentioned online. I'm still not sure I do.
Forgive for insuting a bit, but...
When Gabe, it was never in question that the band would not go on... When Hackett left, Collins (their new frontman)was in Brand X and having serious marital problems (presented in the band's non-album single Vancouver -where the couple moved - around the release time of ATTWT)... The band's foundation was more in jeopardy then , than during The Lamb tour
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
I appreciate some like it but to me it's a complete mess
Hackett clearly is low in the mix IMO, and as JC points out he changed his overall tone and his "distant effect" adjective is spot on
Banks had changed his rig / tone as well - compare the keyboard sounds of Apocalypse in 9/8 from the LP, the complete "Genesis Live" tape, or Montreal 74 as examples vs the tone on the 77 tour
Bad choices by two of my hereos
BG
"When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."
Tull? Really? They put out "Songs from the Wood" in '77, which is, arguably, their best.
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
Whatever other circumstances were surrounding the band, Hackett leaving wasn't "more trouble for the band" than Gabriel.
To even compare these two is simply asinine. I love Steve Hackett, but Gabriel was their front man and the face of their entire musical brand.
The amount of singers they went through before it was even decided that Collins would take a real shot at the job was ridiculous.
Not to change the subject from Genesis, but you don't like Tull's Songs From The Wood (1977)? To me, it was a huge improvement over Too Old To Rock and Roll... from '76. It revitalized the band, got JT great reviews from the critics for the first time in a long while, triggered that whole English heavy folk/rock fresh direction for the band which they continued with until A and the disintegration of the classic 70's Tull line-up. I consider Songs From The Wood to be one of their very best indeed! (But i agree with you about Yes & ELP in those years.)
Oops, just saw ronmac's reply along similar lines--we must have been posting at the same time!
"Wouldn't it be odd, if there really was a God, and he looked down on Earth and saw what we've done to her?" -- Adrian Belew ('Men In Helicopters')
I love the tones Banks and Hackett were getting in '77. Both had changed a bit since the early days, but they were still equally as interesting.
Ah to each his own. Love their rigs and tones from that era and they too are my heroes. Of course for me, the by far bigger blow to the band was Hackett leaving, not Gabriel.
But you know what? How cool is it that nearly 40 years on we are still enjoying and talking about Genesis music from those eras. Timeless music.
I agree with Jeff C - a great sounding live record/mix.
Hackett low in the mix - that may have started out as a joke by Phil Collins since Steve left during the mixing of Seconds Out. Phil said, probably jokingly "so, we mixed Steve out of the album." Although, I agree that Hackett probably should have been slightly more prominent (as compared to several W&W tour boots I have). If you listen to the other Genesis albums, SH's guitar was never mixed that loud to begin with, as compared to every single other band's guitar player, e.g. Steve Howe usually dominant over whomever is playing keyboards.
Seconds Out is my all time favorite album with W&W very close second. Fifth of Fifth is absolutely POWERFUL on SO.
I like SFTW (and HH), but nowhere near totheir first five albums (and LTIA)
My point exactly!
The sheeer amount of energy they put into staying alive during the auditions showed their determination to stay alive and go on...
While, not only Hackett was leaving, but their singer was also moving to the Pacific coast... it was two guys menacing to go away... and the ATTWT album title also shows how traumatic times it was then... It's also a Banks pettyness at getting back at Steve for leaving, saying: "see, we can do it without you".
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
Not sure I agree. They had Rutherford play the guitar parts on subsequent tours, then had Daryl in to play the guitar. Mixing Steve out of the mix smacks of artistic dishonesty to me...
That said, with the exception of Steve's low profile, I think the mix was otherwise great. I especially love Cinema Show. it comes across fresh and vibrant.
This
Exactly
BG
"When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."
Agreed completely. Due to all of the live shows that are available, this album has been rendered inconsequential. Rather overdubbed, too.
Last edited by Facelift; 01-25-2014 at 07:44 PM.
Color it however you like, but Hackett leaving was nowhere near as big a possible blow to their future as Gabriel.
My point exactly!
The sheeer amount of energy they put into staying alive during the auditions showed their determination to stay alive and go on...
While, not only Hackett was leaving, but their singer was also moving to the Pacific coast... it was two guys menacing to go away... and the ATTWT album title also shows how traumatic times it was then... It's also a Banks pettyness at getting back at Steve for leaving, saying: "see, we can do it without you".
Arguably being the key word obviously.I love SFTW but I'd wager there's an awful lot of people who would list Aqualung or Thick As A Brick as the best JT album. (Mine is A Passion Play, but I love 'em all)....
Yes, the band's foundation was more in jeopardy, but that had nothing to do with the lineup changes, and everything to do with Collins' own troubles (being in Brand X was of no consequence). As for "Vancouver", that song was written and recorded in late '77 during the ATTWT sessions. Phil's wife did not take off to Vancouver with the kids until sometime towards the end of the '78 world tour (Phil recounts the story of spending all his time drunk and in a depressed state, particularly in Japan around December during the final days of the tour). I've always found that timeline strange. Phil flew out to live there but could not sort out the marriage and returned home to the UK, where he not only worked with Brand X but began writing and demoing Face Value since Tony and Mike were both busy with their respective solo albums.
The band have always been quite open and candid about the fact that when PG left, they weren't sure how they'd manage without him. They knew they had the chops and the writing abilities, but how would the public see the band without such a frontman? When Hackett left, Banks says "We really didn't think twice about this one". I don't see that as a slight against Steve, just a bit of honesty. They knew they could do it.
Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.
*** Join me in the Garden of Delights for 3 hours of tune-spinning... every Saturday at 5pm EST on Deep Nuggets radio! www.deepnuggets.com ***
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