Bruford as a Jazzer; is he world class?

**cavgator** · 01-25-2014

Originally Posted by Facelift

"Incapable" is a strong word, but let's just say that if some people were going to put together a trio or quartet to play a bunch of 50s and 60s standards, Bill Bruford's name isn't coming up. Obviously not now, but not 10 years ago and not 20 years ago either. Bruford was a great drummer who did lots of things well, but being a straight up bop jazz drummer a la Shelly Manne isn't a strength of his.

Well, no, but then again, the great bebop drummers wouldn't be considered to play jazz fusion or progressive rock, either. The are apples and oranges, not superior and inferior. What I am saying is that Bruford is probably the most prolific rock drummer out there, who actually played a variety of styles, to include jazz, big band, fusion, prog, rock, world music, and Lord knows what else. He is extremely well-regarded by some of the great jazzers in the world today, and is taken seriously by the jazz community.

Personally, I grow weary of the "who is better than who," "what is REAL prog/jazz/fusion" etc. If Bruford would put out an album of traditional jazz classics with the stellar musicians he has worked with over the decades, I have no doubt that (a) he would put his own spin on it; (b) it would be different, not someone's conception of "inferior," and (c) I, and many others would autobuy it simply because Bill Bruford is on the drums. The Wynton Marsalis's of the world be damned...

**Facelift** · 01-25-2014

Originally Posted by cavgator

Well, no, but then again, the great bebop drummers wouldn't be considered to play jazz fusion or progressive rock, either.

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Most haven't tried. Bruford has tried his hand at jazz, and we know what it sounds like - which is why so many people who replied to this thread aren't willing to automatically assume that he could do a great job with the straight-ahead stuff.

**MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER** · 01-25-2014

Like I pointed out, Tony Williams Rocks on a bunch of albums he's on... whether or not he's also considered a "bebop drummer" I wouldn't know since I'm not a Jazz fan but I know he's played Jazz style Drums as well as the Rock stuff he's done

**Calabasas_Trafalgar** · 01-25-2014

Originally Posted by Bake 1

pedestrian

One word sums it up perfectly for me.

**wideopenears** · 01-26-2014

Originally Posted by jkelman

While wideopenears is right in some cases, as you say, he is absolutely wrong here. Bill absolutely studied the jazz masters, from Americans like Max Roach, Art Blakey and Roy Haynes to Brits like Phil Seamen.

How well he could play traditional jazz might be up for discussion; but playing his interpretation of jazz, in all Earthworks incarnations, he was absolutely terrific, imo.

I don't disagree with this, John, and I don't think it stands in contradiction to anything I've said previously. Bill doesn't swing like the traditional cats do, but that's ok with me. I couldn't imagine Bill on a pick-up gig, circa 1962, with anyone in the Blue Note stable, for example...but that's not a value judgement.

**Paulrus** · 01-26-2014

Originally Posted by wideopenears

I couldn't imagine Bill on a pick-up gig, circa 1962, with anyone in the Blue Note stable, for example...but that's not a value judgement.

Ah, but maybe this is the point that bears repeating: A drummer like Bill Bruford couldn't have existed in 1962 because he's a synthesis of too many things that happened after that era had passed.

**wideopenears** · 01-27-2014

I don't disagree with that, either.
Still, if you want "Jazz" as it's usually understood--I mean, Bop-derived, playin' standards/playin' the changes, swinging like a mofo, acoustic instrumental music, the stuff you'll find any night of the week at the Village Vanguard-Bill's not your guy.

I recognize that's a pretty tight definition of "jazz," but that's what most folks consider Jazz..that and the big band music of the Swing Era. I can't imagine Bill playing with Charles Gayle, either, for that matter, or with Sonny Sharrock.....

**jkelman** · 01-27-2014

Originally Posted by wideopenears

I don't disagree with that, either.
Still, if you want "Jazz" as it's usually understood--I mean, Bop-derived, playin' standards/playin' the changes, swinging like a mofo, acoustic instrumental music, the stuff you'll find any night of the week at the Village Vanguard-Bill's not your guy.

I recognize that's a pretty tight definition of "jazz," but that's what most folks consider Jazz..that and the big band music of the Swing Era. I can't imagine Bill playing with Charles Gayle, either, for that matter, or with Sonny Sharrock.....

My only point was that Bill was absolutely aware - a student, more to the point, of those guys, unlike some who really are totally unaware..
Bets!
John

**wideopenears** · 01-28-2014

Not just a student, but a guy who had great respect for the tradition, and who, in my view, is spot-on about his ability to play in certain styles.

But man, those Bruford records smoke! And I love Earthworks--esp. the earlies version, which I saw when the first album was released.

Frankly, thank god that not everyone plays post-bop Drums, eh?

**No Pride** · 01-28-2014

Originally Posted by wideopenears

Frankly, thank god that not everyone plays post-bop Drums, eh?

Yeah. And there's enough sub-genres of jazz that don't call for that style anyway. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether or not Bruford can play like DeJohnette or Elvin or Jeff Tain Watts, etc. He had his own thing that worked perfectly for the music he was playing with Bruford and Earthworks.