The OP reports:
Pleased that my post has generated some discussion.
It's not important but I'd be interested in any knowledgeable response to my original question. Not an opinionated 'you guys don't understand it...', not a comment on how prog was consumed in its commercial heyday, just something like 'my impression is that it's more popular now than twenty-five years ago, but a bit less than it was five years ago...'.
As far as I can tell, prog is not popular or well known at all. But I say it from my experience, maybe others have a different one. Most people have never heard of the genre. To be honest, most don't care to what genre something belongs. Then when I ask about specific bands, the reaction is almost always - Spock's Beard who? Steven Wilson who? People have heard of Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel but never of Genesis (it's pretty clear why that is), they don't know even Yes (most of them). Then again - that's mostly the younger or mid generation. On the other hand, they know Pink Floyd. Everybody does. I remember one person nodding with a positive gesture to knowing Dream Theater, somebody had heard of Presto Ballet but those are such rare exceptions that it largely doesn't matter.
I think it also depends in what part of the world you live in, what kind of festivals you go to, in what circles of people you communicate.
The question was asked about popularity nowdays (as I understand it) - so I said about present times. I have little to no idea about the seventies, only the things I have heard from others or read about it.
One more thing I read recently on one of the Rudess Levin Morgenstein reviews - that the mainstream music critics don't like prog at all, considering it overly pompous etc. Don't know if it's true, but that's what I read.
Good question, but where are they supposed to find ANY music aside from online? I haven't even seen a record store in years. I haven't even set foot in a store like Best Buy in years. Online, of course, but I'll bet it's rare that a site like Amazon "recommends" a band like IQ to a customer.Originally Posted by GuitarGeek
Well, I discovered Spocks Beard, because it was playing in a recordstore.
When I discovered prog in the 70's, it had nothing to do with its popularity, it was because it offered much more than standard rock. If none of the well known prog bands (YES, Genesis, ELP, etc) had anywhere near the popularity that they did have, I still would have discovered prog.
As soon as I discovered prog, I immediately began to explore obscure prog from foreign countries, and the more avant-garde genres as well.
I have no problem rating Banco, PFM, Magma, National Health, Area, Henry Cow and others as highly as YES or Genesis (or even higher), based purely on their compositional skills, musicianship, imagination, complexity, etc without any regards to their popularity.
When prog initially lost its popularity in the late 70's and early 80's, I did not give up or stop listening to the genre, I searched harder and widened my tastes. I refused to let a few rock critics dictate what was good (fashionable) and what was bad (unfashionable) in music.
Once I discovered what is possible in music, there was no going back for me. I never 'gave in' to punk, New Wave, Alternative, or mainstream rock. I got more heavily into RIO, which never seemed to dry up in the 80's. Which lead me to get much more interested in 20th century, contemporary, avant-garde classical (Penderecki, Ligeti, Schwantner, Carter, Webern, etc).
All through this time, I was also listening to non mainstream jazz.
When prog made its revival starting in the early 90's, I never had any allusions that it would ever reach close to the popularity as it did in the 70's. And I don't care (well, I do care for the struggling musicians). The music stands or falls on its own merit, without the need to compare it to bands from the prog heyday.
I still have almost no interest in any form of rock other than most of the various sub-genres of prog. When I don't want to listen to prog, I never reach for another form of rock. I listen to jazz, fusion, modern classical, avant-garde.
And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell
25 years ago, it was dead in the water, the blip of the Marillion/Twelfth Night/IQ copyist trend in retreat, RIO and fusion plodding along with their perpetually small fanbases. Except for the totally "spot the influence", derivative Dream Theater about 5-10 years ago, it's not even close to having a commercial (albums/concert tickets) impact outside of the insular, incestous prog genre. The one genre that did incorporate some elements of prog is the jam band scene, some of the bands that are avowed prog-heads like Phish and Umphrey's McGee are routinely deried here and elsewhere for not being prog enough or why aren't they as good as the Allman Brothers in 1971 when they still had Duane and Berry?'my impression is that it's more popular now than twenty-five years ago, but a bit less than it was five years ago...'.
Now, the fanbase hasn't grown by any large degree and it never will bar a total miracle, the fanbase that's still there is aging, and the musicians foolhardy enough to try and make a living out of this genre will continue to either starve or have to work day jobs to support their music. There's been a bit of a critical reassessment going on, but it's still going to be "Prog! Hahahahah rotating pianos and sparkly capes!" type stuff as far as I can tell. The genre is old, cliche-ridden, imprisoned in a set of musical gestures that haven't been "progressive" in 30 years, it's largely based on nostalgia, with little-to-no prospects for future growth.
Is that what you were looking for?
Last edited by Jeremy Bender; 11-29-2013 at 02:01 PM.
...or you could love
You make an interesting point about judging it by the number of bands that are able to make a living out of prog. Pure guesswork, but I would hazard that a band at the level of , say , Marillion, are still able to do so, but one tier down - say, Spock's Beard or Mostly Autumn , most of the members have to have "day jobs". But perhaps it is not as simple as that, because the day job may be fairly well integrated - eg session work, producing or hiring out equipment.
Oldtime prog rockers are stuck on the term prog rock and most people today consider the term prog rock as a negative.
Yes today prog has a small underground following which has kept the flame alive in prog rock. Marillion, IQ, Porcupine Tree etc...
However, I find elements of prog in so much music across so many genre.
Electronia, post rock, indie rock(several bands), experimental rock, shoegaze (and anything that was influenced by), math rock, bass/drum, neo psychedelic, metal, ambient, techno ambient, space rock, britpop, Synth Pop, noise pop etc...
Kraftwerk and Brian Eno/Fripp (ambient) is prog in my eyes and its influence is never ending.
Sure the 70's dinasaurs are far off the radar to modern kids but the hipsters are listening and creating music that has so many influences that its hard to say what it is anymore. Take a band like Foals who mix post rock, post punk and post dance all into one. Or Muse who have all the elements of prog (mostly symphonic) but mix in pop rock and synth pop to keep it off the prog charts. Sigur Ros post rock sound mixes wth ambient and dream pop. There is also low fi bands today playing avante garde jazz most of it coming from John Zorn type musicians. It's influencing a new crowd of kids into a new avante garde free form jazz. Its not a big group but check out some small clubs in brooklyn and you will see these bands taking shape. How about IDM (intellegent dance music)-I'm stating to see this movement take off. I get a sense in the next few years that dance/electronica and indie rock will blend into a new genre of dance rock with bizarre instruments and long jams. Hard to say if these musicians will become more technical but I actually think it will happen.
Then there is the flaming lips crowd. I could go on.
So yes prog is alive but its not your old dinosaur prog rock!
Most of the time when I mention "I'm into Progressive Rock" to people, they look at me cross or confused. Then I say, "Jethro Tull", and they go, "Oh yeah, I love that stuff!"
True Story.
Not in the Metal scene. Peruse any current Metal magazine or zine and you'll find bands lining up to identify with Prog and Big P Progressive.hightea said:
most people today consider the term prog rock as a negative.
Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!
Lots of popular "prog rock" bands in one way or another, but extremely few have been identified as such by a majority of their listeners (say Tool or Muse or Tortoise or Sigur Ros or Radiohead or Elbow or Battles or Mew or etc.). One of the reasons being that this music practically doesn't form a "genre" in the traditional sense anymore, but rather remains solely as cultural reference point to past tense with the odd "hearable connection" added.
Prog should stay true to the spirit of the 70s, or indeed to 1968 (ahem):
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
I usually say King Crimson, if they still look blank I go to Yes & Jethro Tull.
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/
Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
I blame Wynton, what was the question?
There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.
From now on, we must all start humming "Pnoom" or "My Pal Foot Foot" - NO PASARAN! And no surrender to the non-proglodytes!
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
yeah I was thinking in the metal world. Metal might be the only genre that credits Prog these days!
When get that look or the question, "what is progressive rock?", I usually do not respond with specific band names. Especially the best known groups. They might have preconceived ideas of those bands by which songs got the most radio play. Too many band names have a lot of baggage attached to them.
You say, "Jethro Tull", they may think 'Too Old to Rock and Roll...', you say "YES", they may think, 'Owner of a Lonely Heart'.
I usually try to answer with a description.
And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell
I think you're confusing "progressive" with "prog", which has become a very specific term for a specific type of music. Where's the rhythm sections that are equal to the lead instruments in Kraftwerk? Where's the ignoring of typical verse/chorus structure, the displays of virtuosity etc. I love Kraftwerk's stuff and they were mind-blowing when I saw them at Coachella years ago, but prog? Nah. Fripp & Eno? Hahahahahah, Robert Fripp would give you a withering look before munching on a tasty cake before he'd agree with that.Kraftwerk and Brian Eno/Fripp (ambient) is prog in my eyes and its influence is never ending
Um, you know that IDM dates from the mid-90's and was popular back then, don't you? It was also called "Dance music that you can't dance to" as done by the awesome Autechre (another great live act), Aphex Twin and to a lesser degree, the great Orbital.How about IDM (intellegent dance music)-I'm stating to see this movement take off.Been there, done that, MGMT want the credit please. And, as has been pointed out in the jam band thread, long jams don't = prog.I get a sense in the next few years that dance/electronica and indie rock will blend into a new genre of dance rock with bizarre instruments and long jams.Don't agree with that at all, punk won, full stop. Outside of the prog and metal scenes, flashy playing is utterly frowned upon.Hard to say if these musicians will become more technical but I actually think it will happen.They're a neo-psychedelic band, huh?Then there is the flaming lips crowd. I could go onGreat comment. I love (Tool, MUSE, Radiohead, Elbow) and like (the rest) all of those bands, but except for Tool and MUSE, they aren't "prog" in any meaningful sense. Hell, Elbow used to go around saying "We're prog without the long solos" but they don't sound like it at all, they're a very fine pop-rock band with some specific English influences. Again, just because a band throws in a few bars of 5/4 or does a song longer than 5 minutes doesn't make them prog acolytes.Lots of popular "prog rock" bands in one way or another, but extremely few have been identified as such by a majority of their listeners (say Tool or Muse or Tortoise or Sigur Ros or Radiohead or Elbow or Battles or Mew or etc.). One of the reasons being that this music practically doesn't form a "genre" in the traditional sense anymore, but rather remains solely as cultural reference point to past tense with the odd "hearable connection" added
...or you could love
Which boils down (once again) to the fact that progressive rock and "Progressive Rock" are two totally seperate entities...Once everyone figures that out, arguments on this forum will probably be halved
I agree.
Which is why: fusion, technical-metal, metal-fusion, to name a few examples, fit within the first catagory, but probably not the second.
Not bloody likely...Once everyone figures that out, arguments on this forum will probably be halved
And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell
No I'm not and good that you saw Kraftwerk in 2004 at Coachella I was there too. However, I also saw them back in the 70's where there show was labeled as electronic art rock here in NYC. Kraftwerk were part of the movement in the late 60's early 70's of electronic classical and rock influenced music. Krautrock is a tangent of space rock and early electronic music. Hence they are prog. I could careless what modern history buffs want to call krautrock not a subgenre of prog. Funny I remember hanging at my brothers village apartment playing Kraftwerk and the punks telling us to turn that sh*t off. Now post punk loves Kraftwerk? As far as Fripp and Eno are concerned they love to try to run from the prog label (at least Larry Fast didn't). Did they look at the audience at their performances and who was buying their music in the 70's? Ambient, Space Rock, Krautrock all are sub-genre of prog. Yes they have other elements but so does Pink Floyd, Genesis and King Crimson.I think you're confusing "progressive" with "prog", which has become a very specific term for a specific type of music. Where's the rhythm sections that are equal to the lead instruments in Kraftwerk? Where's the ignoring of typical verse/chorus structure, the displays of virtuosity etc. I love Kraftwerk's stuff and they were mind-blowing when I saw them at Coachella years ago, but prog? Nah. Fripp & Eno? Hahahahahah, Robert Fripp would give you a withering look before munching on a tasty cake before he'd agree with that.
Yes Love autechre, orbital and Aphex Twin but I see a new movement bringing this back and adding a few twists and turns.How about IDM (intellegent dance music)-I'm stating to see this movement take off.
Um, you know that IDM dates from the mid-90's and was popular back then, don't you? It was also called "Dance music that you can't dance to" as done by the awesome Autechre (another great live act), Aphex Twin and to a lesser degree, the great Orbital.
"I get a sense in the next few years that dance/electronica and indie rock will blend into a new genre of dance rock with bizarre instruments and long jams."One-yes long jams don't equal prog duh! But if it takes a technical turn then it could be. Please MGMT try Radiohead! Yeah I agree its been done but I'm not giving up hope.Been there, done that, MGMT want the credit please. And, as has been pointed out in the jam band thread, long jams don't = prog.
"Hard to say if these musicians will become more technical but I actually think it will happen. "
Don't mix solos and flashy playing with technical music. Honestly, its not prog that killed the solo it was the shredders of the 80's. I'm talking instruments and multiple instruments. So many bands today are using instruments outside the basic four that is what punk was all about. If punk won why are there so many bands playing everything they can get their hands on. Have you heard Colin Stenson? Bands play with orchestras, horn sections, string sections. Punkers frown on all this stuff but its becoming more common. A band today especially in the indie/hipster scene can put any two instruments together and play and someone will go out and see them. The hipster seem to be interested in free jazz now a sign they are opening up to other forms of rock. I doubt it will be a big movement but its good to see it happening. Does any of this mean the masses to like prog or any of this will be prog no! Prog is a small circle of bands these days and until I start seeing them on top 50 lists I'm not thinking they are going to get any bigger. However, I'm not looking for the new prog band I'm looking for bands that are going to keep the touch burning on new ideas and music.Don't agree with that at all, punk won, full stop. Outside of the prog and metal scenes, flashy playing is utterly frowned upon.
If Punk won why is post rock have such a big following?
Last edited by hightea; 12-03-2013 at 07:15 PM.
When-ever I read about the 'resurgence' of prog from the heyday of the 70s' I feel as though I've been living in a bubble. Because prog has continued to be a viable genre of music for me throughout the decades. I've always seemed to find new music from both older bands as well as new artists. There was never a span of time when prog ceased to exist and completely dried up.
Maybe I'm just easier to please.
But one thing I will say - prog rock is a genre you have to work at if you want to find new music. It's not - and probably never was - a radio friendly genre where you're apt to discover an exciting new group while cruising down the highway with your radio on. But then again ... bands like Gentle Giant, Gryphon, Eloy, or Camel never really had much airplay even during the heyday of the 70s'.
So even then you had to do your homework when finding new bands and new music.
Thank God for the old Wayside and Syn-phonic mail order catalogs before the internet, which made searching for new treasures a lot easier. As well as the indie record shop and the owner who was a veritable encyclopedia of every music genre imaginable. (Unfortunately the shop and the owner are no longer with us).
I'm always on the hunt - and have been since I first discovered progressive rock in the late 60s' - early 70s'. And a year hasn't gone by when I didn't find something worthwhile to spend my money on.
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