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Thread: Close to the Edge Panegyric-Wilson reviews

  1. #1

    Close to the Edge Panegyric-Wilson reviews

    (I thought a new thread was in order.) I got my Panegyric Close to the Edge with Steven Wilson remixes last night. In short, fantastic; as the label claims, the definitive edition.

    I've just listened to the new stereo mixes of "Close to the Edge" and "And You and I" -- and this is merely on a rip to my iPod -- and they're already worth the entrance price. Wilson has delivered again. Everything is that bit clearer, new subtleties pop out all over the place. Like the drops of water at the end of "CttE" or some of the backing vocals in "&U&I". On to "Siberian Kahtru" now and the same holds.

    I tried the 5.1s last night. Grrr! No complaint with Panegyric, but I'm having difficulty getting my PlayStation 3 (my Bluray device) to output 5.1 to my home theatre system (Panasonic XH-SA150), so I've only got it to play them in stereo so far. Oh well, I've got another combination of wires to try again tonight. (I think this is what makes vinyl and 5.1 special. You spend so much time fiddling around with the equipment that you have to appreciate the music at the end of the process.)

    The packaging design is nice. Well, Digipaks -- hate them. The album will not stay shut. It flaps around. A minor complaint! Moving on... a nice essay from Sid. And lots of extras that I've not listened to yet.

    Henry
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  2. #2
    Henry,

    What do you think of Wilson's decision to include some of the backing vocals that had been left out in the "I Get Up, I Get Down" section of "CttE" ? Like the opening phrase "thru the duty" which appeared on the lyric sheet but wasn't heard at all in the final mix. I wonder if he was instructed by members of the band to reinstate those or did this of his own accord.

    I got this in the post this morning so this is all I've heard so far. Overall my impression is the usual with SW remixes - expanded dynamic spectrum but a certain coldness/dryness to the general sound. But in any case, an interesting alternative to the original mix.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    What do you think of Wilson's decision to include some of the backing vocals that had been left out in the "I Get Up, I Get Down" section of "CttE" ? Like the opening phrase "thru the duty" which appeared on the lyric sheet but wasn't heard at all in the final mix. I wonder if he was instructed by members of the band to reinstate those or did this of his own accord.

    I got this in the post this morning so this is all I've heard so far. Overall my impression is the usual with SW remixes - expanded dynamic spectrum but a certain coldness/dryness to the general sound. But in any case, an interesting alternative to the original mix.
    The band approved this edition, but I suspect they didn't have much or any input into such decisions. I've not heard either way though; that's just my guess.

    The only point so far where I've felt uncertain with Wilson's choices has been with how much higher in the mix he's brought some of the backing vocals in "CttE". It does stand out. Ultimately, as you say, it's an alternative: the Bluray release has 4 versions of the original piece (Wilson stereo, Wilson 5.1, flat stereo master, vinyl needledrop), so you can pick whichever you want to listen to. I think I like the change, but maybe that's just because of the novelty.

    Henry
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    The only point so far where I've felt uncertain with Wilson's choices has been with how much higher in the mix he's brought some of the backing vocals in "CttE". It does stand out.
    The reverse is true on "And You And I", just before the "Apocalypse" section when the second voice goes "and you and I... etc." (Squire's bit when performed live), it's barely audible.
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
    Legends In Their Own Lunchtime (blog) - https://canterburyscene.wordpress.com/
    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/ + "King Crimson" (2012/updated 2018) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/kingcrimson/
    Canterbury & prog interviews - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdf...IUPxUMA/videos

  5. #5
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    I noticed the backing vocals as well today when I listened to it. Overall, it sounded fantastic.

    Worse packaging ever, however. A digipak that doesn't shut squeezed into a cellophane bag and a booklet that just falls out?!?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    The reverse is true on "And You And I", just before the "Apocalypse" section when the second voice goes "and you and I... etc." (Squire's bit when performed live), it's barely audible.
    Some of Squire's live vocals have long been more prominent than on record, but that's another issue. I've just listened to the new stereo mix of "America" and, again, some of the background vocals early on seem more prominent, but I don't know whether that's because they're higher in the mix or just because the whole process has reduced tape noise so everything is just clearer.

    I'll re-listen to the bit you mention on "&U&I"; I didn't notice anything first time through. Elsewhen on that piece, about 3:00, there's some burbly stuff going on in the background that I'd not noticed before. Can't quite work out what it is.

    Henry
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Elsewhen on that piece, about 3:00, there's some burbly stuff going on in the background that I'd not noticed before. Can't quite work out what it is.
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  8. #8
    I think the overall material is first rate. I was surprised that they called the mix of "America" from Yesterdays the "original mix." I'm fairly sure from listening that the version on "New Age of Atlantic" is the original mix, and the version on Yesterdays is that mix with added reverb. It's too bad that couldn't have included the version from "New Age of Atlantic," as that has never appeared anywhere else (as far as I know).

    J. D.

  9. #9
    Sounds real good upon first listen. More detailed review later.

    Anyone know what software can be used on a Mac to extract the audio files so I can load them into Itunes. The DVD rippers I have aren't working.

    Thanks

  10. #10
    Overall I'm really impressed with the set (I got the cd/dvd version). Wilson's remix is very nice, very warm and open, don't hear much of compression or added EQ. Sounds like the instruments are right in the room with you sometimes.

    I also appreciate getting the high quality flat transfer on the DVD. That sounds great too. Liner notes and packaging top it off. T

    This is the way to do a remix, unlike the Genesis stuff.

  11. #11
    Member LASERCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeprogmeister View Post
    Sounds real good upon first listen. More detailed review later.

    Anyone know what software can be used on a Mac to extract the audio files so I can load them into Itunes. The DVD rippers I have aren't working.

    Thanks
    DVD Audio Extractor

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I think this is what makes vinyl and 5.1 special. You spend so much time fiddling around with the equipment that you have to appreciate the music at the end of the process.
    Are you saying vinyl requires more fiddling than CD? Why would that be?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Are you saying vinyl requires more fiddling than CD? Why would that be?
    You are kidding, right? You need to clean a record every time you play it. You also should clean the needle. The proper set up of a turntable takes infinitely more time that a CD player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post

    I tried the 5.1s last night. Grrr! No complaint with Panegyric, but I'm having difficulty getting my PlayStation 3 (my Bluray device) to output 5.1 to my home theatre system (Panasonic XH-SA150), so I've only got it to play them in stereo so far. nry
    I just stream the full digital stream from my PS3 over HDMI to my receiver.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Are you saying vinyl requires more fiddling than CD? Why would that be?
    I don't know that vinyl requires it, but there tends to be more of a ritual to it. And prog is a musical form very tied up in ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    I just stream the full digital stream from my PS3 over HDMI to my receiver.
    Thanks. I need to try an HDMI connection from PS3 to receiver.

    Henry
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I don't know that vinyl requires it, but there tends to be more of a ritual to it. And prog is a musical form very tied up in ritual.



    Thanks. I need to try an HDMI connection from PS3 to receiver.

    Henry
    I use an Xbox 360, which has similar ports to those of the PS3. If your receiver has an S/PDIF port then you are in good shape. I run HDMI to my TV then the S/PDIF to my receiver, then its just a matter of setting the PS3 to output in 5.1.

  18. #18
    After listening to the CttE stereo remix, I've concluded that most people must listen for different things in a mix than I do. The praise being heaped upon this new mix would certainly suggest this to be true. And even a couple of people whose ears and judgment I value highly have been impressed by this mix. Some have even claimed the new stereo mix to be "improved." I can't share such a viewpoint.

    "Clarity" is important. Sure, it's nice to notice that a vocal sounds more "clear" or a guitar line previously a bit "lost" in a mix is now more prominent. But I think these are only things that hold deep interest for a listen or two because one is so fully familiar with the music at hand. Hence, a certain excitement ensues when new discoveries are made within that music. But, for me, in the final analysis, the overall "feel" of a mix is more important. It's not just a cliché, feel is a part of the music listening experience. Recent scientific studies even confirm this with music being found to reduce Chronic Pain, for example. And I suspect "Bridge Over Troubled Water" helping someone feel a little more comfortable didn't come from noticing an extra piano fill they hadn't heard before. I use this example only to illustrate the point that a mix is many things. Details are significant, but certainly no more important than the emotional responses is generates.

    I think what most people want from these remixes is detail. They want the instruments to "stand out" more. To that extent, this remix is a complete success. I've long believed that this is why "remastering" was such a successful marketing weapon for the industry. Compress the signal a little, bring out some detail and the average listener feels that he has a made a wise buying decision in purchasing the same music again. Brilliant, really. The same principle applies here, but achieving that result is being done in a way where the original dynamics can remain intact or even slightly improved.

    But what is the overall goal of a mix? Clarity? Crisp, detailed sound?

    Or is there a certain, intangible quality that comes from a mix that helps it get inside of us and move our emotions?

    Where this new mix fails miserably is in taking an analog mix and turning it into a Pro-Tools mix that sounds like it was recorded yesterday. And, IMO, this is simply not an improvement. It's different, even "fun," but the overall intensity and depth is inferior to the original Eddie Offord mix. So when I hear people discuss it as "better" than the Offord original, I can only assume they measure sound "quality" by whether they can hear Jon Anderson's voice a little more clearly or think Squire's bass being picked sounds a little more like it is "in the room" with them. Or maybe they prefer the improved soundstage. But there is a "dryness" in the new mix that only serves to show off just how impressive the original mixing decisions were. The original reverb decisions made by Yes and Eddie Offord seemed just about perfect and found a fantastic balance between clarity and ambience, but those are now gone. Everything is right up front, crystal clear, brilliantly clean, and yet, the mix lies there like a dead fish. It brings your ears in, but your body can't compute why you just don't feel anywhere near the same sense of emotional involvement that the original mix invoked from your soul on so many occasions.

    As I have previously suspected as regards the work of Steven Wilson, I just don't think taking an analog mix and digitally remixing it is an approach which yields a result that has the "life" that was there to begin with. I truly believe that for digital recordings, this approach would yield far more satisfying results. But the difference in analog master tape sound and a digital remix is far too severe and the latter pales in overall character and "warmth." IMO, no amount of added "clarity" can make up for this fundamental shortcoming. And anyone who thinks Steve Howe's acoustic guitar on "And You And I" has a sound within a country mile of the "flat" transfer presented on the Blu-ray version of this very same release simply has a very forgiving set of ears.

  19. #19
    Interesting points, Jeff, I think there's a lot to that- and more. For me, at least, I heard this at an age when it probably literally affected the wiring of my brain. It stimulated neurons and created pathways and when I hear CttE I expect those same neurons to fire. Now, I enjoy remixes for the very reasons you say- it's interesting to hear clarity in things in a new way, it's cool to hear a different balance in things but for me it's interesting in a clinical, academic way. The true listening satisfaction still comes from the old mixes, not because they are "right" or empirically better but because they are familiar. I don't have this release yet, and I plan to get it and I expect I will thoroughly enjoy it, but the new mix will never replace the old one in the long run for me. I haven't even heard it and I already know.

  20. #20
    I wouldn't say the new mix is better, just different, and tastefully done. The harpsichord on Siberian for instance sounds amazing. But you can't replace the original analog mix, and I will listen to both.

    Usually digital remixes don't impress me, or they use a lot of compression and eq, and usually digital reverb can't match the original analog plate reverb, but this one I found quite nice to listen to. I am also quite enjoying the hd flat transfer.

  21. #21
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    Jeff C is on the money with his assessment above

    I don't want everything background pushed up front and that is whats happened here

    The backing vocals are "clearer" to a point of annoyance

    My only disagreement is that it's somehow "fun" - I'll take my original Atlantic, thank you

    I have:

    Original Atlantic
    Gaswirt
    Rhino
    MFSL
    SACD
    Panegyric

    Nothing beats the original

    BG
    Last edited by Brian Griffin; 11-15-2013 at 11:26 PM.
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  22. #22
    So which sounds better, the flat transfer or the needle drop?

  23. #23
    My first conlusion after hearing the PCM 5.1 mix is that I will need to change my 5.1 default settings on my receiver for the BD input. It is generally lower in bass and much louder on the center channel (+ 6db). So the first conlusion was plenty of detail but little depth and power.
    Once I correct this, I will wait for my family to go out and properly crank things to a respectable level.
    I was hoping to be blown away by the bass pedals on the organ section at the end of I Get Up, I get Down. Instead, it sounded wimpy, like maybe someone turned off my subwoofers.

  24. #24
    Just listened to the 2013 stereo remaster. I was left surprisingly cold. Usually I like SW's remixes. Then went to the vinyl transfer and enjoyed it immensely. Go figure.

    Perhaps I was playing it too quietly? I don't have 5.1 where I am living currently and the stereo is a bit crap. YMMV.

  25. #25
    just a couple of quick thoughts after a little partial listening. Glad I read ahead of time about the digipak not closing, because it allowed me to be mindful to not tear the plastic wrapping, which is actually a nice pouch design and will keep the disc held flat. Makes me flash back to the times when I kept favorite albums in their original plastic, much like my Grandmother kept her couch.

    the additional takes I recall from a few years back when there was a thread on a.m.y about a link to something titled YesStudioOuttakesAndRoughMixesCollection which included these takes plus a few short glimpses of the songs in some extremely alternate stages of development.

    I wonder why they chose to include America on CttE disc instead of Fragile, the album it had been considered for. Maybe they have something else slated for Fragile or maybe they just really wanted to launch this series with a bang and thought this might help?

    I have much listening before I could make an informed comment on the general sound spectrum. But I will say the vocals seems to get the best treatment on the new 2013 CttE mix but felt the bass and drum backbone lacked punch. I'm sure it would have been possible to add a little more bottom end here. Maybe this was remaining true to original spectrum? America 2013 seems pretty punchy.

    anyway, don't let my above comments fool you, I'm like a kid at Christmas and this will be the most I've listened to these track in many many years, probably since 1973.

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