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Thread: Close to the Edge Panegyric-Wilson reviews

  1. #51
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryLI View Post
    What's the ultimate no-brainer, Rand?
    LOL you beat me to it!
    www.velvetthunder.co.uk - From the ashes of the Classic Rock Society rises Velvet Thunder!

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by rojon View Post
    ...But I will say the vocals seems to get the best treatment on the new 2013 CttE mix but felt the bass and drum backbone lacked punch.
    I wanted to add to both part of this.

    about the bass thing, I dont think that it is a true, what I said about the bass and drum lacking punch in the song, actually the bass seems to get a pretty good treatment throughout the 2013 mixes. However, that thought still strikes me during a certain section, that bouncy bass behind "a seasoned witch could call you..." That riff appears a few times, always with that high ended bass. but anyways.

    after a few more listens now, for me the 2013 5.1 mix is inspired, primarily the sound placement.

    5.1 mixes, despite their capability to place a sound pretty much anywhere in the room, typically employ front speakers for the center load while the surrounds are relegated to backing material. Steely Dan mixes usually throw the backing horns to the surrounds for example. so that's the norm. this mix is probably as far outside that box as you get, because it boldly tosses lead material to the surrounds. ironically, that same moment in the song, "a seasoned witch could call you..." check how strongly the vocals are coming at you from the side......man. the And You And I, Eclipse section also stands out to me as bold use of surrounds. Its like Wilson tosses out that fear that using the surrounds will be sneered at as gimmicky and commits to the idea that the total room is the canvas, and the sound around you is the painting. This is so tastefully done that it makes for an immersive listening experience. And maybe more important for me, it rejuvenates an album I overplayed as a kid. CttE lives and walks again.
    Last edited by rojon; 11-24-2013 at 04:37 PM.

  3. #53
    NEARfest Officer Emeritus Nearfest2's Avatar
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    I agree on the 5.1. The harmony vocal placement is great. I also liked the treatment on some of the keyboards in the surrounds, particularly the subtle panning effect at the every beginning just when the whole band kicks in.
    Chad

  4. #54
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie B View Post
    Which kind of begs the question - why do you keep buying the new versions?
    Because it is arguably the greatest progressive release of all time, I'm curious, and it's YES?

    I make pretty good jack and it's not like these were expensive, it's interesting to see how the engineers try and improve on, (close to), perfection

    IMO the original Atlantic is one of the best sounding discs in my collection

    With DVD's I tend to listen once or twice and file them 4E, this situation really isn't all that different

    BG
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  5. #55
    OK, got to listen to the DVD-Audio 5.1 mix for the first time tonight. My listen to the BluRay was somewhat less than favorable.
    First, let me say my BluRay is a Panasonic, not exactly high end, but this model is considered one of the best consumer units from 2 years ago.
    My DVD-Audio 5.1 player is an Oppo 981HD. It is connected to my receiver using 5.1 analog outputs, so this configuration bypassing any digital processing other than the Oppo's D/A converters.
    Once the music kicks in, I notice a fuller more expansive sound compared to the BluRay HD Master Audio 5.1 mix. Jon's lead vocal is very up front. The detail found in Jon's voice is very impressive, but unfortunately, it throws the overall mix out of balance. In fact, I find the BGVs to be way too low in comparison to the lead. They may actually be louder in comparison to the instrument mix, but they simply do not blend well.
    Don't get me wrong, there are parts where the overall sound is very enjoyable, but the vocal to BGV balance is just not there. Overall, the keyboards tend to suffer most from diminished volume. The pipe organ crescendo at the end of I get Up, I get down is VERY DISAPPOINTING in it's lack of bass. It's like there was no bass pedals played on this. When I heard there was going to be a 5.1 mix, I had great hopes this part would blow people away. It is very underwhelming compared to the HD tracks 96/24 stereo mix.
    I have yet to sample AYAI and SK on this yet.
    I will flatly state that if you own a DVD-Audio player and are deciding between that mix and the BluRay, go with the DVD-Audio.

  6. #56
    one other thing, and admittedly I know this goes into the being too picky category...I love the on screen image being the Dean waterfalls, but am I crazy or is that a seam running up the center? Did they lift this from something folded? I pulled out an old album and the screen seam is exactly where the album seam is.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rael View Post
    I never really had an issue with the sound quality of most of the classic Yes records and I confess I've never even felt that Relayer sounds as bad as its detractors often claim.
    I love Relayer, it's by far my favorite Yes album and one of my Deserted Island discs. However I get why the sound is criticized: Yes had released two incredible sounding albums in Fragile and Close to the Edge, but Relayer sounds like what it was, an album recorded in Chris Squire's garage, with an engineer who was becoming a problem, said engineer having to work with a brand new mixing desk. Plus, I've read criticisms that it's CttE Part 2. I suspect that no matter how much sonic trickery SW applies, Relayer is never going to sound anywhere near as good as Fragile or CttE.
    ...or you could love

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    OK, got to listen to the DVD-Audio 5.1 mix for the first time tonight. My listen to the BluRay was somewhat less than favorable.
    First, let me say my BluRay is a Panasonic, not exactly high end, but this model is considered one of the best consumer units from 2 years ago.
    My DVD-Audio 5.1 player is an Oppo 981HD. It is connected to my receiver using 5.1 analog outputs, so this configuration bypassing any digital processing other than the Oppo's D/A converters.
    Once the music kicks in, I notice a fuller more expansive sound compared to the BluRay HD Master Audio 5.1 mix. Jon's lead vocal is very up front. The detail found in Jon's voice is very impressive, but unfortunately, it throws the overall mix out of balance. In fact, I find the BGVs to be way too low in comparison to the lead. They may actually be louder in comparison to the instrument mix, but they simply do not blend well.
    Don't get me wrong, there are parts where the overall sound is very enjoyable, but the vocal to BGV balance is just not there. Overall, the keyboards tend to suffer most from diminished volume. The pipe organ crescendo at the end of I get Up, I get down is VERY DISAPPOINTING in it's lack of bass. It's like there was no bass pedals played on this. When I heard there was going to be a 5.1 mix, I had great hopes this part would blow people away. It is very underwhelming compared to the HD tracks 96/24 stereo mix.
    I have yet to sample AYAI and SK on this yet.
    I will flatly state that if you own a DVD-Audio player and are deciding between that mix and the BluRay, go with the DVD-Audio.
    How do you connect your Panasonic to the receiver? May be your comparison is not fair since you are using different equipment.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by rickm View Post
    How do you connect your Panasonic to the receiver? May be your comparison is not fair since you are using different equipment.
    HDMI cable.

  10. #60
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    OK, got to listen to the DVD-Audio 5.1 mix for the first time tonight. My listen to the BluRay was somewhat less than favorable.
    First, let me say my BluRay is a Panasonic, not exactly high end, but this model is considered one of the best consumer units from 2 years ago.
    My DVD-Audio 5.1 player is an Oppo 981HD. It is connected to my receiver using 5.1 analog outputs, so this configuration bypassing any digital processing other than the Oppo's D/A converters.
    Once the music kicks in, I notice a fuller more expansive sound compared to the BluRay HD Master Audio 5.1 mix. Jon's lead vocal is very up front. The detail found in Jon's voice is very impressive, but unfortunately, it throws the overall mix out of balance. In fact, I find the BGVs to be way too low in comparison to the lead. They may actually be louder in comparison to the instrument mix, but they simply do not blend well.
    Don't get me wrong, there are parts where the overall sound is very enjoyable, but the vocal to BGV balance is just not there. Overall, the keyboards tend to suffer most from diminished volume. The pipe organ crescendo at the end of I get Up, I get down is VERY DISAPPOINTING in it's lack of bass. It's like there was no bass pedals played on this. When I heard there was going to be a 5.1 mix, I had great hopes this part would blow people away. It is very underwhelming compared to the HD tracks 96/24 stereo mix.
    I have yet to sample AYAI and SK on this yet.
    I will flatly state that if you own a DVD-Audio player and are deciding between that mix and the BluRay, go with the DVD-Audio.
    So the. Oppo analog goes thru the multi channel input to the receiver. What receiver model do you have?

  11. #61
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    I don't think its a fair statement as to whether the DVD is better than the Bluray because your system may not be optimal for streaming Bluray to your receiver. I can pretty much testify the the Bluray is awesome cause I got mine today. Make sure the Bluray isn't decoding the audio and the digital audio stream is output to the receiver and the receiver is capable of decoding DTS master audio.

  12. #62
    Firth-
    Check, check and double check. There are other factors as well, such as the MCACC settings (the automatic EQ, channel volume, and time delay settings using a mic and test tones.

  13. #63
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Are you saying that the Oppo goes thru the receiver on Analog Pure mode, and the Bluray gets the MCACC? If your speakers include a subwoofer, try setting the "THX Speaker" setting when doing the cal.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    HDMI cable.
    I think your comparison is not valid since when you connect using HDMI is your DACs receiver. When you use the analog is the OPPO's DAC. May be you should try going from the OPPO to the receiver using HDMI to have a more fairly comparison.
    My guess is that it should sound the same the Blu Ray version and the DVD-A.

  15. #65
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    The Lasers Edge got my blu-ray from New Jersey to California in only 4 days and I am playing the stereo remix now for And You And I. I am wondering what the major difference is between DTS and LPCM 5.1? It's hard to distinguish for me. Thanks Ken Golden.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand Kelly View Post
    The Lasers Edge got my blu-ray from New Jersey to California in only 4 days and I am playing the stereo remix now for And You And I. I am wondering what the major difference is between DTS and LPCM 5.1? It's hard to distinguish for me. Thanks Ken Golden.
    LPCM 5.1 is 96/24 and the Dts is 48/24 on the blu ray. The higher the khz, the greater the audio range (stereo lpcm is 192/24). The LPCM is truly lossless and will sound more like a record (warm and full) than the dts. Essentially the LPCM 5.1 is the best of both worlds, warm and full like analog, without the pops, click or hiss of a record!

  17. #67
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    First time I've ever seen 48khz 24 bit DTS MAS, however it is lossless. The DTS website lists it as possible with BD. 192khz /24 bit is the best 5.1 here, however I don't think it will make a huge difference relative to the DTS- HD. The HDMI interface from my PS3 works great with decode of all formats I'm my receiver. In this way there is only one d/a conversion.

  18. #68
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Records are compressed and therefore not lossless, and there are so many factors in playback that one could hardly compare them to any of these HD formats. BTW I have never heard the pureness of Squire's bass tone before now on any other recording. In concert, yes.

  19. #69
    I see people mentioning missing the basspedals on the I Get Up I Get Down section but if my memory serves me right they weren't there in the original mix either but only popped up on subsequent live versions to compensate for the 'fake' church organ.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruboy1969 View Post
    LPCM 5.1 is 96/24 and the Dts is 48/24 on the blu ray. The higher the khz, the greater the audio range (stereo lpcm is 192/24). The LPCM is truly lossless and will sound more like a record (warm and full) than the dts. Essentially the LPCM 5.1 is the best of both worlds, warm and full like analog, without the pops, click or hiss of a record!

    DVD-A: New 5.1 Surround Mix Lossless 96kHz/24bit from original multitracks
    BLU-RAY: New 5.1 Surround Mix DTS-HD 96kHz/24bit from original multitracks

    This means the Close to the Edge DVD-A is supposed to be better (even if our ears are not able to distinguish the difference) compared to the Blu Ray version?

    I'll buy Oppo-103 which supports DVD-A. What should I buy? DVD-A or Blu-Ray to get the best audio? Thx.
    Last edited by rickm; 11-23-2013 at 09:11 PM.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Records are compressed and therefore not lossless
    Lossy and lossless refer to data encoding.

    The terms have nothing to with analog recording or the cutting of vinyl.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruboy1969 View Post
    LPCM 5.1 is 96/24 and the Dts is 48/24 on the blu ray. The higher the khz, the greater the audio range (stereo lpcm is 192/24). The LPCM is truly lossless and will sound more like a record (warm and full) than the dts. Essentially the LPCM 5.1 is the best of both worlds, warm and full like analog, without the pops, click or hiss of a record!
    Thanks. I really had no clue until now. I listened to the entire album minus vocals(Blu-Ray Only?) and I can assure you whether you believe me or not,Chris is playing the Guild Fretless on all of Close To The Edge(the song) There is no Rickenbacker fretted bass on that song. I listened closely and I hear strange sliding when he changes notes. He doesn't play the song with a fretless live probably because playing one and singing is really difficult and the intonation would suffer greatly.

  23. #73
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Lossy and lossless refer to data encoding.

    The terms have nothing to with analog recording or the cutting of vinyl.
    Yeh, and I know the problem the community has with my definition however I take the most generic of definitions and analog compression reduces the information of the music. Therefore, I say it is compressed. Yes digital data compression is different than amplitude compression. The main point here is that the DTS HD 5.1 track is not compressed from a data standpoint.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickm View Post
    DVD-A: New 5.1 Surround Mix Lossless 96kHz/24bit from original multitracks
    BLU-RAY: New 5.1 Surround Mix DTS-HD 96kHz/24bit from original multitracks

    This means the Close to the Edge DVD-A is supposed to be better (even if our ears are not able to distinguish the difference) compared to the Blu Ray version?

    I'll buy Oppo-103 which supports DVD-A. What should I buy? DVD-A or Blu-Ray to get the best audio? Thx.
    The Oppo ? Depends on your system and where the best D/A is. My receiver's D/A is the best, after channel/room calibration all in 32 bit / 192 KHz digital processing. My player is a euro Pioneer that streams DSD (SACD) and DVD A to the receiver on HDMI. The receiver has DSD decoding to 32/192 PCM.

    Bluray and DVD A 5.1 24/192 PCM streams are the same

    Probably the only reason for the 5.1 DTS 24/48 is that some receivers can't handle higher bit rates. It sounds good though, maybe slightly less wispy as the 24/192 because of high frequency filtering differences.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    So the. Oppo analog goes thru the multi channel input to the receiver. What receiver model do you have?
    Pioneer VSX-1019AH.

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