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Thread: ELP - Welcome Back...Live

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
    I
    It has nothing to do with the height of the roof, it's simply the way the live show was recorded. .
    Or more precisely, how it was mixed.

  2. #27
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Is it the recording that is "cavernous" or is it just the mix?
    It's the mix. As I noted above, you can hear what the actual music sounds like without all the ambient garbage on the KBFH CD.

  3. #28
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    The sound does leave much to be desired (as well as the packaging...), but the performance is excellent.

    Tarkus is the standout here, especially Auqatarkus. Later in the tour ELP would further expand Auqatarkus, as seen in the Rich Stadium and New Jersey 74 ROIO's, and it is too bad this was included WBMFTTSTNE. But as mentioned, I am looking forward to Steven Wilson's remix of this album

  4. #29
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    I don't follow Steven Wilson's remixing career apart from when he shows up on Robert Fripp's diary, but I thought he had declined to do a remix of Trilogy (and I presume Brain Salad Surgery), why would he remix then WBMF?
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  5. #30
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    I guess Mr Wilson, won't be doing anymore ELP remixes.

    Somehow, I missed this one.... http://www.progrockmag.com/news/stev...-on-elp-again/

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Or more precisely, how it was mixed.
    This. As i said before, the album was originally meant to be heard in Quad with the room ambience and funny moog panning in the rear speakers. The stereo record was a fold-down of that. As a result, there was quite a lot of ambience in the stereo mix. That said, listening to the KBFH mixes, Carl Palmer's drums weren't recorded too well.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
    I don't follow Steven Wilson's remixing career apart from when he shows up on Robert Fripp's diary, but I thought he had declined to do a remix of Trilogy (and I presume Brain Salad Surgery), why would he remix then WBMF?
    Jakko is doing the Trilogy and BSS. No idea about the WBMF. Hopefully it gets remixed.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    The stereo record was a fold-down of that. As a result, there was quite a lot of ambience in the stereo mix.
    That's just... retarded though. Although ELP is generally known for a colossal level of don't-give-a-shit-itus, so there you go.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    That's just... retarded though. Although ELP is generally known for a colossal level of don't-give-a-shit-itus, so there you go.
    I wouldn't say they didn't "give a shit "just because they tried to make a good sounding quad mix. After all, quad was considered as the next level in Hi-fi. The fold-down was done with care too - they just didn't do a dedicated fresh stereo mix.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    The fold-down was done with care too - they just didn't do a dedicated fresh stereo mix.
    Those are utterly mutually exclusive concepts. If you don't treat the stereo mix as a separate entity and spend, oh, I dunno, 2 hours of mix time (that's approximately 90 seconds to set the fader levels and the rest to hit play and run it off) to attenuate the rear ambiance channels to appropriate levels you get what they got- shit. And the stereo version is the one that was going to owned by, oh, pretty much, uh, everyone. I'm happy for the 2,000 or so people that did have it in quad. All they had to do- seriously- was release the stereo as the front channels and ignore the rear. Nope, this was clearly done by chimps.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    Those are utterly mutually exclusive concepts. If you don't treat the stereo mix as a separate entity and spend, oh, I dunno, 2 hours of mix time (that's approximately 90 seconds to set the fader levels and the rest to hit play and run it off) to attenuate the rear ambiance channels to appropriate levels you get what they got- shit. And the stereo version is the one that was going to owned by, oh, pretty much, uh, everyone. I'm happy for the 2,000 or so people that did have it in quad. All they had to do- seriously- was release the stereo as the front channels and ignore the rear.
    Not exactly: the moogs and sequencers and effects were going around the room.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    Not exactly: the moogs and sequencers and effects were going around the room.
    And those effects didn't translate correctly in the fold down either so there's really still two choices: Ignore them and let them fade up and down a bit (which is pretty much what happens) or do a proper stereo mix from the multitracks and they can go from side to side at a correct level.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    And those effects didn't translate correctly in the fold down either so there's really still two choices: Ignore them and let them fade up and down a bit (which is pretty much what happens) or do a proper stereo mix from the multitracks and they can go from side to side at a correct level.
    So, it needs a new remix! It would be nice to have a Deluxe edition with the whole show remixed, and the original mixes as a bonus.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    So, it needs a new remix! It would be nice to have a Deluxe edition with the whole show remixed, and the original mixes as a bonus.
    Absolutely

  15. #40
    Member Garion81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rael View Post
    I'm amazed you guys can remember the sound quality from concerts that occurred 40 years ago. I can't even remember what the sound was like last year at most of the shows I went to.

    I remember it because it was the show that really changed my life about music and how it was perceived, played and written. Those things you don't forget.

  16. #41
    Member Garion81's Avatar
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    BTW the talk of cavernous, the Anaheim Convention Center at that time seated about 5,500 people (they have expanded to 7500 now). They played 2 night there Feb 1974.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    This. As i said before, the album was originally meant to be heard in Quad with the room ambience and funny moog panning in the rear speakers. The stereo record was a fold-down of that. As a result, there was quite a lot of ambience in the stereo mix. That said, listening to the KBFH mixes, Carl Palmer's drums weren't recorded too well.
    Which would beg the question (which I meant to bring up when it brought it up before), why didn't they do a proper stereo mix back in 1974? Were they so convinced that quad was going to be "the wave of the future" that they didn't think anyone would want to hear it in stereo or what? Or was Atlantic unwilling to pay for two mixing sessions?

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    I wouldn't say they didn't "give a shit "just because they tried to make a good sounding quad mix. After all, quad was considered as the next level in Hi-fi. The fold-down was done with care too - they just didn't do a dedicated fresh stereo mix.
    My understanding was the quad era was rather brief period, mainly because of the expensive hardware you had to buy, and the various non-compatible formats (as I understand it, each of the big labels had their quad system, and you needed a separate turntable for each). So it sounds to me like they were gambling on something that wasn't a "proven thing" just yet.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang View Post
    Not exactly: the moogs and sequencers and effects were going around the room.
    The funny thing about that is, I remember once listening to the CD on headphones, and when the sample and hold bit in Karn Evil 9 First Impression kicked in, I could have sworn it was swirling around my head. I initially thought they may have remixed the tapes for CD using one of those "fake quad" systems, like holophonics (which Pink Floyd used on The Final Cut) or Q Sound (I think that's the name of the system that Roger Waters said was used on Amused To Death).

    But I was later told that no, that wasn't the case, and the reason that bit seemed swirl around was because one's head (and therefore ears) moves around in relation to the headphones, and thus the illusion is sometimes created that it is the sound that's moving around.

  20. #45
    All Things Must Pass spellbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Flang
    Not exactly: the moogs and sequencers and effects were going around the room.
    Indeed they were, thanks in part to an oval speaker system on the ceiling. The album sounds good for what it is; no live album is a perfect recreation of a concert as heard by the concert audience. I'm glad to have it. But there is no substitute for being there.
    We're trying to build a monument to show that we were here
    It won't be visible through the air
    And there won't be any shade to cool the monument to prove that we were here. - Gene Parsons, 1973

  21. #46
    Member Garion81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Which would beg the question (which I meant to bring up when it brought it up before), why didn't they do a proper stereo mix back in 1974? Were they so convinced that quad was going to be "the wave of the future" that they didn't think anyone would want to hear it in stereo or what? Or was Atlantic unwilling to pay for two mixing sessions?
    Yes that is exactly it. Quad stereos were the rage and knew several people that owned them. The top three albums Dark Side of the Moon, BSS and Jeff Becks Blow By Blow. You could buy stereo mixes of the same albums. The difference is ELP did their show in Quad and it was something very different and unique at the time. Quads popularity only lasted a few years.

  22. #47
    [QUOTE=Garion81;171732]Yes that is exactly it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garion81 View Post
    Quad stereos
    At the risk of sound pedantic, "quad stereo" is an oxymoron. Your sound system is either stereo, or quad. It can't be both simultaneously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garion81 View Post
    were the rage and knew several people that owned them. The top three albums Dark Side of the Moon, BSS and Jeff Becks Blow By Blow. You could buy stereo mixes of the same albums. The difference is ELP did their show in Quad and it was something very different and unique at the time. Quads popularity only lasted a few years.
    Pink Floyd's show was in quad too, but they did proper stereo mixes of their albums.

    And as I said before, ELP apparently bet the bank on a fad that faded quickly,and ended up with a live album with a lousy mix with too much reverb because they didn't take the time and money (and apparently, they had plenty of money, back before 1977) to do a proper stereo mix for the contingency that this quad thing may not turn out to be a long term deal (hell, how about for those who didn't have quad sound systems to begin with?!).

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
    Here's Zeppelin at the place WBMF was recorded at, the Anaheim Convention Center Arena:

    Attachment 2655
    This appears to be a Japanese venue.

  24. #49
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    This appears to be a Japanese venue.
    No, the roof is very distinctive, here's a shot of the Arena being used for a basketball game:

    kpiv3v-24arenalarge.jpg
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  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
    I think that photo on the back was taken at Wembley Arena in London.

    Here's Zeppelin at the place WBMF was recorded at, the Anaheim Convention Center Arena:

    Attachment 2655
    Go to this page: http://imgzoom.cdlib.org/Fullscreen....and=calisphere
    and zoom in on the keyboardist.

    It's Ray Manzarek. The image was supplied by the Anaheim Public Library. (BTW, a number of audience members are wearing suits and ties.)

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