Gibson: The iPhone of electric guitars?

[Sputnik]

I've often heard it said that if you buy a Mexican Fender, and swap out the pickups (which are apparently one of the areas where they cut corners) with, say Seymour Duncans or DiMarzios, they become much better guitars.

There's a fair bit of truth in this. The poplar and basswood bodies can actually be quite resonant, so with the Mexican Strats you can often find a perfectly fine instrument at a very good price. Not that there aren't other good makes in this price range, but Fender compares well at this price point with their Mexican instruments. Pickups and hardware are the place where corners are cut, and changing the pickups can make a world of difference. There are more good aftermarket pickup options out there today than at any time in history. I just got a set of Mike Relainder pickups for my custom Tele (65 Strat neck and middle with a 60s Tele bridge) that absolutely KILL! $225 shipped from Canada. Unbeatable, the guitar sounds fantastic - better in some ways than my 57 Strat with Fender 57/62 pickups.

And since the topic of Far East made instruments came up, the other guitar I've lately been thinking about some of the recent Squier models. I believe those are made in China now, as well. They have one model with Seymour Duncan made lipstick tube pickups, which kinda has my attention lately. I've also seen another Squier model that has a matching headstock, which looks kinda cool.

The recent issue of "classic vibe" (or whatever they're called) Squiers are very impressive. I played one of their Teles when I was in Atlanta recently and I was favorably impressed played side by side with the new 69 American Vintage reissue. I didn't plug them in, and I assume the '69 would have sounded better, but in terms of playability and feel, the differences were minimal. Lots of players talk about getting a nice Squier and replacing the pickups, and possibly the bridge and tuners (another dirt cheap upgrade, as a set of Klusons is about $30), and having a super gigging instrument. As with any guitars in this range, you can get a clunker, but if you shop around a bit you can usually find a decent one. And I have to say, from 15 feet away, the Squier looked as cool as the Fender. They really do capture a nice vibe on these instruments.

Bill

[klothos]

That's a good point, and I hear you. Working musician's salaries have likely not kept up with the inflation of salaries generally, so that is surely a mitigating factor.

Still, ~$1,600 - $1,700 for an American made Strat is hardly "collector's only" pricing, and that's for an American Vintage. American Standards are around $1,200 new. Les Pauls are more. I see them at about $2,000 to about $2,600 for something reasonable that isn't super fancy. It's not cheap, but for an instrument you're likely to have and be able to use for your whole life, it's not a king's ransom. And there are far cheaper options that a Pro could definitely use, many made by Gibson and Fender. To me, the bigger issue is working musician's salaries, not the cost of the instruments. But that's another topic altogether.

Fender and Gibson's Marketing and Research people were certainly doing their jobs in the 90s. Fast forward to now, and I rarely pick up a USA made Fender ( LOL - I generally ignore any bass with "Gibson" on the headstock - even T-Birds) that "sings" to me when I try it acoustically and most play/feel sluggish, even with a store setup.......On the other hand, i pick up a MIM or MIJ Jazz Bass with a store setup and they play like a hot-knife goin through buttah'.

For the record, almost all my basses are USA, with my primary basses are a G&L ASAT, an EB Stingray (exactly like the one in my avatar), a USA Peavey Cirrus, and one USA Fender Jazz. I have more, but of these Top four, I will play the G&L 99% of the time

[GuitarGeek]

There's a fair bit of truth in this. The poplar and basswood bodies can actually be quite resonant, so with the Mexican Strats you can often find a perfectly fine instrument at a very good price.

Interesting that you bring up that resonance issue. I remember when I was a teenager reading about guitarists who had the wood under the pickguard on their Strats routed out, to create what's sometimes called the "swimming pool" area or the "universal route" so that any pickup configuration can be installed. In particular, I remember reading about Stevie Ray Vaughan's yellow Strat, which had been routed for four humbuckers by a previous owner, as well as the tricks Loverboy guitarist Paul Dean used on his self built guitars. The way I heard it explained this creates an acoustic cavity, effectively converting the guitar into a semi-acoustic instrument, like an ES-335 or one of those Thinline Telecasters. The result I remember reading was that you got a more resonant tone. And then later, companies like Warmoth and Chandler started offering chambered bodies, that I guess produced this effect in a less haphazard fashion.

So I wonder if using a conventional solid body made from basswood or poplar wouldn't recreate the same effect without the extra routing. And of course, this also brings up the question would happen if you did the extra routing on a basswood body, would that make it even more resonant, or is there's a certain point where you hit critical mass, as it were, and no further work will have any effect?

BTW, getting back to Paul Dean for a second, I read in Guitar Player he talked about how he had a guitar that he smashed while doing a "half assed Pete Townshend imitation". He actually repaired the neck, and really liked the tone it had afterwards. Unfortunately, he apparently left the guitar in a hot trunk, which caused the neck to "go to shit", in his words. He eventually figured out that one of the reasons he liked the repaired neck was so because there was actually an air space in area of the neck where the break had occurred, which again apparently added to the instrument's resonance. So he tried building a neck that had a joint in that same part of the neck.

He said that when he started building the prototypes for what ended up being the Paul Dean model that Hondo marketed during the Get Lucky era (yes, that's right, believe it or not, Loverboy were actually big enough in the 80's that not one, not two, but in fact three guitar companies marketed Paul Dean models), he cut grooves in the neck, under the fingerboard, running parallel with the truss rod slot, to add to the resonance.

[Sputnik]

Fender and Gibson's Marketing and Research people were certainly doing their jobs in the 90s. Fast forward to now, and I rarely pick up a USA made Fender ( LOL - I generally ignore any bass with "Gibson" on the headstock - even T-Birds) that "sings" to me when I try it acoustically and most play/feel sluggish, even with a store setup.......On the other hand, i pick up a MIM or MIJ Jazz Bass with a store setup and they play like a hot-knife goin through buttah'.

Interesting. I'm definitely on board with you about the Gibson basses. I've never been a fan of them, very much including the Firebird. Some players use them with great success, but they aren't for me at all.

I'm a little surprised about your experience with USA made Fenders. I haven't tried their Standard series in years, but most of the USA vintage guitars I've tried are very nice. That '69 I played was really nice, certainly as nice as the Squier I tried. When I was in Nashville last year, I played a ton of stuff including LSLs and Nash, as well as the Larivee Tele with the wide neck and several G&Ls. Many of these were very nice, but with the exception of the LSLs I didn't find anything that was stunningly superior to the Fender AV guitars, and the AVs were usually priced lower than most of the boutique alternatives. But, individual players will experience different things, so if the Mexican/Japanese Fenders feel good to you, save the bread and get one of those!

For the record, almost all my basses are USA, with my primary basses are a G&L ASAT, an EB Stingray (exactly like the one in my avatar), a USA Peavey Cirrus, and one USA Fender Jazz. I have more, but of these Top four, I will play the G&L 99% of the time

You may be the only player I've ever heard of who actually plays an ASAT bass. I just never hear any buzz about these. As a super fan of the Tele body shape, this bass was very attractive to me, but when I tried one I found it unwieldy and the neck profile was too thin and narrow for my liking. That was years ago, maybe I should give one another go.

G&L makes solid guitars, I played several extensively before settling on my 57 Strat reissue. The Strat just felt more comfortable in my hands, the G&Ls were heavier and didn't "breathe" the way the Strat does for me. I also owned a G&L ASAT Thinline for a while. It was nice, and sounded pretty good, but for me it lacked "character." It was built solidly, but even for a thinline was heavy and something about the neck profile didn't suit me. Personally, I'd take that 69 thinline I played over the ASAT, but both are surely quality instruments.

Bill

[klothos]

You may be the only player I've ever heard of who actually plays an ASAT bass. I just never hear any buzz about these. As a super fan of the Tele body shape, this bass was very attractive to me, but when I tried one I found it unwieldy and the neck profile was too thin and narrow for my liking. That was years ago, maybe I should give one another go.

G&L makes solid guitars, I played several extensively before settling on my 57 Strat reissue.

LOL -- Im sure I dont have to tell you that every bass, like guitar, is different. The ASAT is basically an L-2000 with a tele body. The body isnt what grabbed me when I bought it new in 1995, it was the feel and that "magic' I felt in my hands, you know: that natural extension of myself - plus, it is the absolutely loudest bass I have ever played acoustically/withour plugging it in ......I totally agree with you about the usual feel of these basses: I have been searching for a second one for 17 years(!) as close to it as possible but to no avail - I guess my 95 ASAT is just a one-of-a-kind anomaly

The best thing about it is its flexibility: I'm not a set-it-and-forget-it player and I like to use a wide-range of tones dependent on the song. My ASAT is that one bass that allows me that flexibility and alleviates me from having to bring a number of instruments to one gig

Here is a clip of me playing the ASAT and going through several of the tones I use....all this is done on one bass

http://hc.bloodyvelvet.com/files/126/DRFWankage.mp3

I'm a little surprised about your experience with USA made Fenders. I haven't tried their Standard series in years, but most of the USA vintage guitars I've tried are very nice.

They are hit-and-miss....Most new USA Jazz's (I'm not a standard P-Bass player, btw....They are cool but I find them very limiting for myself and I dont care for the neck-width on most) can be all over-the-map at any store I walk into. Some are nice but most aren't - very sluggish of which I attribute the new marketing strategy. My 2004 is very nice but doesn't compare to the 1972 I used to own in the 80s (and kick myself for ever letting go)

Interesting. I'm definitely on board with you about the Gibson basses. I've never been a fan of them, very much including the Firebird. Some players use them with great success, but they aren't for me at all.

LOL - Same. The Victory (which weighs a ton!!), the RD Artist (which also weighs a ton!! - and is not very conducive to R&B/funk/dance/modern jazz/Top-40) and the G3 (which I like the best of any Gibson bass - very flexible and modern sounding - but plays like a baseball bat) are probably the best IMHO but ,still, "NO!"

[Paulie]

The ASAT is basically an L-2000 with a tele body.

Except the ASAT is made with the #8 neck (1.5" nut, Jazz taper) and the L2000 comes with their #12 neck (1.625" nut, P-bass profile). I loved the slim neck on my ASAT compared to the chunkier clunkier neck on my L2000. Both were custom-shop basses and sounded superb (loved the passive mode!). The L2000 didn't last due to the neck profile and I reluctantly got rid of the ASAT because it was heavy as hell (10.75 lbs)! A decision I sometimes regret as it was a stunning bass. Antique-white to arctic-white color shift finish, matching headstock, and naked rosewood fingerboard. Mmmmm mmm good!




I am smitten with Tele basses as well and I have since picked up a couple Schecter Baron-H basses for overhaul. I love the Baron's Tele body as it is larger and more suitable for a bass guitar (the ASAT and Warmoth Custom-T bodies seem to be machined from their guitar programming with different neck, bridge and electronics routing). They're also semi-hollow with an f-hole and binding so they are light and aesthetically pleasing. I've purchased a Warmoth neck and it fits like a glove in the neck pocket, only the bridge needs to be relocated 0.5" more towards the tail to accommodate the difference in the number of frets between the original (23 frets) and the Warmoth (20 frets).

[Paulie]

I've noticed Warmoth mentioned a few times here. They're lotsa fun to build and I'm a huge fan. Fit, finish, choice of materials...all top notch and boutique worthy IMO. Here's my growing Warmoth family:

[Yves]

Dude! You're using Orange Amps? You in a stoner band?!

[Paulie]

@ Yves! That's just my practice area. I'm a Markbass guy through and through.

[klothos]

Except the ASAT is made with the #8 neck (1.5" nut, Jazz taper) and the L2000 comes with their #12 neck (1.625" nut, P-bass profile). I loved the slim neck on my ASAT compared to the chunkier clunkier neck on my L2000. Both were custom-shop basses and sounded superb (loved the passive mode!). The L2000 didn't last due to the neck profile and I reluctantly got rid of the ASAT because it was heavy as hell (10.75 lbs)! A decision I sometimes regret as it was a stunning bass. Antique-white to arctic-white color shift finish, matching headstock, and naked rosewood fingerboard.

Beautiful bass, but what you describe isnt anything like mine: mine is nowhere near 10 1/2 pounds nor is it chambered.....and i have handled L2000s that have the J-Style neck taper.....My ASAT is below (bottom left -- some basses in my arsenal are not shown)

[Paulie]

I believe you can custom order the L2000 with a #8 (so I'm sure they are out there) but they default with a #12.

Nice collection! I used to be a Stingray man (SLO Special). They are truly badass.

[klothos]

I'm a Markbass guy through and through.

Genz Benz guy here but, shit-fire-and-call-me-Nellie!, MarkBass are incredible

[Plasmatopia]

Wow, this thread has gone a bit off the rails, but hopefully no one minds.

I have a MIM P-bass that I bought about 15 years ago and considering I only paid something like $275 for it brand new it's been a great instrument. In recent years I've noticed that it frets out when bending the D or G strings above the 12th fret. I've tried adjusting the truss rod and bridge saddles in every way imaginable and can't get rid of it without seriously sacrificing the action on the lower frets (which was never super great to begin with, but can't be improved on at all now due to this problem). It appears that the fret board just has a weird twist to it above the 12th fret. I tried filing down a couple of the frets in the problem area, but I'm not sure I could make drastic enough changes in the fret height before hitting wood, lol.

The nice thing about this bass is that it tolerates changes in tuning pretty well without changing the action. My more expensive Highway One P-bass plays nicely when I get it set up correctly, but the neck goes all over the place as the weather changes (forget trying different tunings) and the E string lacks low end punch.

I've actually considered trying to replace the neck on the MIM P-bass. A $300 neck on a $275 bass! Anyone here done that before? As long as I get one with the right scale (like from Warmoth) should it pretty much bolt in place and then just be a matter of truss rod and saddle adjustments?

[GuitarGeek]

You may be the only player I've ever heard of who actually plays an ASAT bass. I just never hear any buzz about these. As a super fan of the Tele body shape, this bass was very attractive to me, but when I tried one I found it unwieldy

Bill

When I was a kid, I remember seeing pictures of the so called Telecaster Bass, and wondered why it didn't have the silhouette as it's guitar counterpart. I read in one of the books on the history of the Stratocaster that the instrument didn't balance correctly with the Telecaster style body. Apparently, the extra length and weight of the bass neck caused the headstock to dip toward the floor if you took your hands off the instrument. So Leo added the upper horn, which in turn relocated the strap button, which made the instrument balance better.

[GuitarGeek]

I've noticed Warmoth mentioned a few times here. They're lotsa fun to build and I'm a huge fan. Fit, finish, choice of materials...all top notch and boutique worthy IMO. Here's my growing Warmoth family:

Nice selection of instruments. For a real long time, I was hung on the headstock logos. But lately, I've been thinking, so long as it has the silhouette (because half the reason you gravitate toward this guitar over that one is the look), it doesn't matter what (if anything) it says on the headstock (or in the case of my old Hagstrom, what it says on the body).

And I reckon a couple of the things I want on the guitars I have in my head, one would have to go to the Fender Custom Shop, and that'll cost a lot more than buying the parts from Warmoth. Just for the hell of it, I totaled up all the parts for one of the guitars I wanted on the Warmoth website. Even going with a matching headstock, locking tuners, custom fingerboard inlays, chambered body, and a few other tweaks to the basic Strat design, the price tag would be around $1,500, and I reckon a FCS built instrument would be at least another thousand above that.

The one thing the FCS can do that Warmoth probably can't is the whole custom neck profile (you hand them a guitar neck, they scan it into the computer, and they can make one identical to it). But I'm not one of those guys who is so married to one guitar (even though I own just a few) that I'm going to sit there and go "this doesn't feel right" when playing anything else (unlike, say, Eddie Van Halen or Trevor Rabin, to name two prominent guitarists who are known of have had such issues).

[No Pride]

Wow, this thread has gone a bit off the rails, but hopefully no one minds.

It sure has! But anybody who minds is either new here or has been here too long.

Anyhow, if you bass players don't mind me getting back to Gibson guitars for a moment...

My first two electric guitars were Gibsons. The first was (what they called at the time) an SG Special. It had two P-90 pickups. The Special is something different now. I loved that guitar and had a monogamous relationship with her for 12 years until somebody stole her. Then I got an ES-335. It was now the later '70s and their quality control had already begun to go downhill. The neck on that guitar cracked bigtime near the nut. It was sitting in a hardshell case, hadn't been dropped or exposed to any extreme weather or unorthodox tuning. It must've just been a bad piece of wood. Gibson glued a new neck on for me free of charge, but the writing was on the wall afaic. They made great instruments consistently in the '50s and '60s. They still do sometimes, but it's a crapshoot now. If "the iPhone of guitars" means they're the best, well, then they're not the iPhones of guitars. Nothing is, really. There's tons of different companies building guitars now and some of the ones you may have never heard of consistently make better instruments than Gibsons or Fenders. Those names have been iconic legends for a long time, but they don't often live up to the hype nowadays. IMO, of course.

[JSS]

Anyone here ever play a Nighthawk? Those always looked interesting to me.

[klothos]

Anyone here ever play a Nighthawk? Those always looked interesting to me.

In the 90s, I had a Gibson Blueshawk (P90s - or P100s - I cant remember instead of the Nighthawk setup) --- it was a decent guitar but im the last person to ask about a guitar. I kept it for several years and traded it for a Steinberger bass (which i also no longer have)

[Supersonic Scientist]

Anyone here ever play a Nighthawk? Those always looked interesting to me.

Go back to my post #18...that should answer your question.

[Mikhael]

Talking about Gibson basses, the only one I thought worth a crap was the Ripper. Felt great, had a nice unique tone, though it was a bit heavy. The G-3 (I think; the bass version of the Marauder series?) wasn't bad, once you replaced the pickups.

[JSS]

Go back to my post #18...that should answer your question.

Oops, missed that. I always wondered about the mix of pickups. Not good huh? Yeah, I never liked gold hardware either. Especially on a Les Paul.

[Mikhael]

Oops, missed that. I always wondered about the mix of pickups. Not good huh? Yeah, I never liked gold hardware either. Especially on a Les Paul.

Wasn't the Nighthawk the one with a humbucker - single coil - minihumbucker pickup scheme? I've never played one, but I've used that pickup scheme on other guitars, and I really like it. A lot. If you use split-coil or parallel options on the humbuckers, there's an amazing array of good tones available.

[GuitarGeek]

Talking about Gibson basses, the only one I thought worth a crap was the Ripper. Felt great, had a nice unique tone, though it was a bit heavy. The G-3 (I think; the bass version of the Marauder series?) wasn't bad, once you replaced the pickups.

The Ripper was the model Greg Lake used on the Brain Salad Surgery tour, right? And Rick Danko and I think also Devo's Gerald Casale played Rippers as well.

If I remember correctly it was Ripper that Krist Novoselic used to demonstrate how not to catch a guitar that you've thrown in the air at the one MTV Video Awards. Essentially, when the instrument came in for re-entry, it conked him on the head. If you watch the video footage, you can get see him sort of stumbling off the stage at the end of the song, in a daze, before Cobain literally gives him the boot in the ass.

Gene Simmons used a Gibson bass, I think a Grabber (that's the one with the sliding pickup, right?) during the Hotter Than Hell/Dressed To Kill era.

Edit: Apparently, Gene had two Grabbers (one burgundy, which I think is the one he's playing in the black and white Winterland footage, and a black one), and also a black Ripper. I think one of the black Gibsons is the axe he's playing on the cover of Kiss Alive.

[klothos]

.....and the G3 (which I like the best of any Gibson bass - very flexible and modern sounding - but plays like a baseball bat) are probably the best IMHO but ,still, "NO!"

The G-3 (I think; the bass version of the Marauder series?) wasn't bad, once you replaced the pickups.

Yup - to me, its their best bass design. The neck is what I don't like, but its punchy like a Fender Jazz without sounding like a Jazz. As a matter of fact, some tones are unique.......The design is actually another extension of the Ripper/Grabber family with a different PU combination (that weird translucent pickup cover-thing a la Marauder) but I actually thought the factory pickups were decent....
...Still, it played like ass

[Supersonic Scientist]

Speaking of basses....the Bass player in our band just ordered a custom-made Roscoe 5-string. Should be ready by Jan.