Grateful Dead - Sunshine Daydream 3CD/BR,DVD

[WytchCrypt]

Ya, I concur with the "band didn't want to deal with anything unpleasant" vibe surrounding the inner circle. It would probably have been viewed as very uncool to sack Donna for "doing her thing" (even if "her thing" was occaissionally wailing out of tune gospel on "Playing in the Band" :-) As far as Keith's shortcomings, I agree that he's way too piano-centric. I much prefer the Pigpen/Constanten days - though I guess they might be accused of being too organ-centric but my preference has always been toward organ and not piano.

Seeing Keith with that synth on top of his Rhodes reminds me of a story George Duke told about playing with Zappa in the early 70's. Frank wanted him to do more than just electric piano so he bought an ARP (I think it was a white panel Odyssey?) and put it on top of George's Rhodes. After turning his nose up at it for awhile he started twiddling with it and by '74 he eventually fully incorporated it in his playing (as can be heard on YCDTOSA Vol2 The Helsinki Concert). I guess Keith never got around to playing with his synth!

[GuitarGeek]

I guess Keith never got around to playing with his synth!

Keith played synth a little bit. There's examples from I think 76 and definitely from 77, where he's definitely playing synth, for instance on Estimated Prophet, usually. As I said, he had a Polymoog in 77, but every photo or video clip I've seen of the band from 78, he had gone back to playing just piano (a Yamaha CP-70, for what it's worth).

I just always thought a little Tim Blake/Del Dettmar style of synth playing would have fit in nicely with the 72-74 era Dark Stars and The Other Ones, and as I said those two shows from 6/16/74 and 6/18/74 you hear a bit of synth playing which I think works really well. I certainly enjoy the recordings of the band from 74 where the Phil & Ned bits segue into a full band improvisation, and there's a few shows that circulate that had varying combinations of Jerry, Phil, Ned, and/or Mickey Hart where you can kind of hear what a full on Dark Star with full participation from Ned, turned up in the mix, too, might have sounded like. I just think there was a missed opportunity there.

[WytchCrypt]

I just always thought a little Tim Blake/Del Dettmar style of synth playing would have fit in nicely with the 72-74 era Dark Stars and The Other Ones, and as I said those two shows from 6/16/74 and 6/18/74 you hear a bit of synth playing which I think works really well. I certainly enjoy the recordings of the band from 74 where the Phil & Ned bits segue into a full band improvisation, and there's a few shows that circulate that had varying combinations of Jerry, Phil, Ned, and/or Mickey Hart where you can kind of hear what a full on Dark Star with full participation from Ned, turned up in the mix, too, might have sounded like. I just think there was a missed opportunity there.

I'm not a real Dead expert when it comes to live shows (I only have Sunshine Daydream, 100 Years Hall, and the 4CD "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grateful Dead") so I may be off base here, but the feeling I got while watching the Sunshine Daydream DVD was Dark Star could have really benefited from some additional musical textures. I found myself losing interest a few minutes into the improv as Jerry's playing started to just sound like the same thing over and over. Some interplay between him and a synth could have been really interesting...maybe doubling some lines, or trading off solo's or something. It's kinda the same trap that Zappa fell into circa 1981 when he was running his Les Paul through that extreme flanging sound and would just noodle around and solo for minutes at a time without really saying much or the solo developing in any way. Oh well, guess we'll never know

[GuitarGeek]

I'm not a real Dead expert when it comes to live shows (I only have Sunshine Daydream, 100 Years Hall, and the 4CD "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grateful Dead") so I may be off base here, but the feeling I got while watching the Sunshine Daydream DVD was Dark Star could have really benefited from some additional musical textures. I found myself losing interest a few minutes into the improv as Jerry's playing started to just sound like the same thing over and over. Some interplay between him and a synth could have been really interesting...maybe doubling some lines, or trading off solo's or something. It's kinda the same trap that Zappa fell into circa 1981 when he was running his Les Paul through that extreme flanging sound and would just noodle around and solo for minutes at a time without really saying much or the solo developing in any way. Oh well, guess we'll never know

I liked Zappa better when he switched over to that Strat copy with the Floyd Rose and custom EQ system.

But as far as the Dead, it's hard to say. I remember Tom Constaten complaining that one of the problems he had in the Dead was that they were effectively Jerry's back up band, so far as things like Dark Star was concerned. SO he didn't get much of a chance to solo. He said that if Jerry broke a guitar string, then he'd get to play an organ solo, but then Jerry would restring and be back in action as quickly as possible, almost like he was "It's ok TC, I can handle it from here". TC said that he felt the Dead and keyboards was kinda like the experiment where you put a piece of fruit in a jar, and you have a monkey try to get the piece fruit out. The piece of fruit by itself or the monkey's hand by itself will fit through the neck of the bottle, but the monkey's hand gets stuck when he tries to retrieve the fruit (unless, of course, he figures out how to turn the bottle over and shake the fruit out).

I think TC felt the Dead was in the same place with keyboards, in so much they wanted a keyboardist in the band, but they didn't want to leave enough room in the band for the keyboardist to do much of anything except to back up Jerry and Bob. That's not completely true, Keith and later Brent and after him Vince, sometimes got to play solos, but they were still few and far between, versus Jerry, who soloed on virtually every song. And I kinda get the impression that sometimes, Keith would be a bit, ya know, I don't know if he'd just get lost musically, or if he was just too laid back or what the deal was, but there's a lot of times where you just hear the piano drop out altogether in the long improvs. Now, one doesn't notice it at first, because there were all kinds of orchestrational changes, let's say, during that era, when the band would launch into those epic length improvisations, but sometimes you can just imagine Keith sitting on his bench on the other side of the stage, looking at Jerry, going "What the hell am I supposed to play behind that?!". Or maybe Keith was just drunk or stoned (I've heard that one of the problems they had, at least later on, was that he drank too much) to be able to follow Jerry. (shrug)

[NeonKnight]

I'm not a real Dead expert when it comes to live shows (I only have Sunshine Daydream, 100 Years Hall, and the 4CD "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grateful Dead") so I may be off base here, but the feeling I got while watching the Sunshine Daydream DVD was Dark Star could have really benefited from some additional musical textures. I found myself losing interest a few minutes into the improv as Jerry's playing started to just sound like the same thing over and over. Some interplay between him and a synth could have been really interesting...maybe doubling some lines, or trading off solo's or something. It's kinda the same trap that Zappa fell into circa 1981 when he was running his Les Paul through that extreme flanging sound and would just noodle around and solo for minutes at a time without really saying much or the solo developing in any way. Oh well, guess we'll never know

No it's not you! Dark Star really is the peak of suckitude for the Dead! (I've already noted how much I hate that song, and the fact that a lot of Deadheads LOVE that song just reinforces my belief they're all probably tripping again.)

[JKL2000]

The Dark Star on the Sunshine Daydream set (Veneta, OR, '72) is actually excellent.

[WytchCrypt]

The Dark Star on the Sunshine Daydream set (Veneta, OR, '72) is actually excellent.

It's interesting you say that because I listened to the Sunshine Daydream CD's many months before I finally got around to watching the DVD. Dark Star didn't bore me to tears listening to the CD as I was working or doing other stuff, but when I watched the DVD and my full 100% attention was on the show I was thinking I wish this song would really go somewhere or just end

[GuitarGeek]

No it's not you! Dark Star really is the peak of suckitude for the Dead! (I've already noted how much I hate that song, and the fact that a lot of Deadheads LOVE that song just reinforces my belief they're all probably tripping again.)

If by "tripping" you mean we're doing drugs, I assure you that's not the case. I don't do drugs, and I love Dark Star.

[NeonKnight]

If by "tripping" you mean we're doing drugs, I assure you that's not the case. I don't do drugs, and I love Dark Star.

Well GuitarGeek, you may not be popping acid, but I suggest you drop some sense of humor pills and fast!! (What do you suppose these little faces mean, anyway?)

[JKL2000]

What do you suppose these little faces mean, anyway?

That you're tripping your nuts off?

Reading some of the material in the booklet for this set, it sounds like they considered it one of GD.net's "big, elaborate releases" which it sort of is (the deluxe edition is beautifully packaged, with 3CDs and 1BR or DVD. Yet when it came out, it somehow wasn't promoted ad being a really big release - in fact, I almost didn't buy it because it somehow didn't quite register with me for a fairly long time. I finally realized I needed it and bought it.

Kind of weird that it got sort of a soft sell. Maybe I just wasn't reading the emails from them carefully enough yet at that point (I wasn't into their big releases when the Europe 72 one came out, unfortunately).

[NeonKnight]

That you're tripping your nuts off?

If that's what it takes to finally "get" Dark Star, it ain't worth it. Glad it works for you though...

[GuitarGeek]

Well GuitarGeek, you may not be popping acid, but I suggest you drop some sense of humor pills and fast!! (What do you suppose these little faces mean, anyway?)

Why don't you drop some originality pills?! I've been listening to "All Deadheads do drugs" wisecracks for 27 years now! Just because you thought you were making a joke doesn't mean you're actually funny!

[NeonKnight]

Just lighten up dude, really. Like the Dead and "long strange trips" on psychedelic drugs have no association at all?

Sorry you feel all Dead fans have to subscribe to the Dark Star acid litmus test to qualify... (original enough for ya?)

[NeonKnight]

Tell you what GG. This might surprise you, but I am sorry I touched a sore spot with my bad jokes. I value your contributions here.

I apologize.

Silly really, since we agree that this CD/DVD is pretty damn awesome. (with one noticeable skip song in the middle there somewhere.)

Next round on me?