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Thread: The Flower Kings - "Desolation Rose" released October 28th

  1. #326
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    It always seems a little strange to fault bands for doing "more of the same" when they are in many respects "retro" and borrowing from a well-established musical idiom. I mean, right from the get-go they are essentially creating variation within a certain idiom....and then we are going to arbitrarily say "wait, it's gone too far...it's just too much the same".

    I can totally understand people listening to TFK or SB and thinking it all sounds the same. On some surface level it certainly does. But within that framework they have continued to create. And really, I don't think it's possible for TFK to fully "succeed" on everyone's terms. Sum was considered by some a "return to form" and somewhat probably a reaction to the experiments on Unfold The Future and A&E. So the "samey" sounding band had gotten too experimental (again, still within certain bounds) and had deviated too far from the early period and some didn't like it...and when a "return to form" came along (Sum) it was just too "more of the same".

    What should they do? lol....
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  2. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    It always seems a little strange to fault bands for doing "more of the same" when they are in many respects "retro" and borrowing from a well-established musical idiom. I mean, right from the get-go they are essentially creating variation within a certain idiom....and then we are going to arbitrarily say "wait, it's gone too far...it's just too much the same".

    I can totally understand people listening to TFK or SB and thinking it all sounds the same. On some surface level it certainly does. But within that framework they have continued to create. And really, I don't think it's possible for TFK to fully "succeed" on everyone's terms. Sum was considered by some a "return to form" and somewhat probably a reaction to the experiments on Unfold The Future and A&E. So the "samey" sounding band had gotten too experimental (again, still within certain bounds) and had deviated too far from the early period and some didn't like it...and when a "return to form" came along (Sum) it was just too "more of the same".

    What should they do? lol....
    Very good point.

    There was an interview with Roine Stolt where the interviewer brought up how some have leveled those complaints at the band of doing "more of the same." Roine's response was very sensible (discussing how some people consider "progressive rock" to mean bands that sound like Art Zoyd, and others consider it to be retro/symph, etc.). One of the things he said was in likening "falling in love" with a band to falling in love with a person -- you wouldn't like it if every week their personality changed into a different one.

    Striking a balance where you don't just repeat yourself, but also don't change "too much" to alienate the existing fans, must be extremely difficult. Too much focus on that, rather on the creativity and the music itself, would probably detract from it.

  3. #328
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    I bailed out on them many years ago for that reason- there's not really enough change in the sound from album to album. That's not unique to them, by any means- I feel the same about other bands like IQ, Dream Theater etc. But they have an audience who want that and who am I to criticise a more 'niche' band for giving the audience what it wants...especially with the industry being more cut-throat now.

    I still have and enjoy some of their albums- funnily enough, it's 'Unfold The Future' I find myself liking most now, and I had issues with some of that before (particularly the instrumentals). It's definitely their jazziest release and as such, does stand out from their catalogue IMHO.
    Last edited by JJ88; 09-09-2014 at 10:05 AM.

  4. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I still have and enjoy some of their albums- funnily enough, it's 'Unfold The Future' I find myself liking most now, and I had issues with some of that before (particularly the instrumentals). It's definitely their jazziest release and as such, does stand out from their catalogue IMHO.
    This is one of my favorites, for that very reason. The jazz fusion elements that creep into much of their music seemed to be at their strongest on UTF, and it made for one of their most interesting recordings (for me).

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    This is one of my favorites, for that very reason. The jazz fusion elements that creep into much of their music seemed to be at their strongest on UTF, and it made for one of their most interesting recordings (for me).
    Count me in also as one of those who prefer UTF for that very reason. I think the jazz elements bring improvisation, a sense of risks being taken, that is completely absent from the rest of their catalogue. The music of TFK usually sounds so controlled, as if every note was carefully planned by Stolt. I really loved the jazz fusion approach found on UTF, it really added something that was missing from their music. It's a shame they didn't pursue this direction, but apparently Roine was a bit put off by the negative reaction of some of the fan base.
    As someone said earlier, there's just no way you can please everyone...
    Not just a Genesis fanboy.

  6. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by LeFrog View Post
    Count me in also as one of those who prefer UTF for that very reason. I think the jazz elements bring improvisation, a sense of risks being taken, that is completely absent from the rest of their catalogue. The music of TFK usually sounds so controlled, as if every note was carefully planned by Stolt. I really loved the jazz fusion approach found on UTF, it really added something that was missing from their music. It's a shame they didn't pursue this direction, but apparently Roine was a bit put off by the negative reaction of some of the fan base.
    As someone said earlier, there's just no way you can please everyone...
    Actually, that is one of the things I like about TFK. Roine Stolt is meticulous about the music he writes, and I appreciate the subtleties that result from it. Structurally, the way he develops themes and reworks them through a piece (through major/minor variations, modulation, etc.) is one of the reasons I love the guy and his music.

    That being said, the jazzier approach was a real treat for the ears personally. I appreciated the difference, myself. It's unfortunate that not everyone did, but like you said, you can't please everyone.

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Actually, that is one of the things I like about TFK. Roine Stolt is meticulous about the music he writes, and I appreciate the subtleties that result from it. Structurally, the way he develops themes and reworks them through a piece (through major/minor variations, modulation, etc.) is one of the reasons I love the guy and his music.
    I actually didn't mean this as a criticism. But too much control can sometimes be at the expense of the musicians' spontaneity which is often what I feel with TFK.
    Not just a Genesis fanboy.

  8. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by LeFrog View Post
    I actually didn't mean this as a criticism. But too much control can sometimes be at the expense of the musicians' spontaneity which is often what I feel with TFK.
    Ah, I see what you mean. You are right, there is a trade-off and sometimes spontaneity can be a good thing too.

  9. #334
    éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é Don Arnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    The only one I haven't found memorable is the latest one, and I think that's all down to me not listening to it much. I need repetition to remember anything.
    Give this one a few more spins Plasmatopia. I think it's a very strong effort by TFKs but it takes some investment to "get it". Someone else mentioned that they enjoyed this one once they treated it as one long epic, broken into sections. I think this is a helpful perspective going into the listening experience.

  10. #335
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    It's as good as anything else in their catalog. TFK's really can do no wrong in my book!!!
    The Prog Corner

  11. #336
    Jon Neudorf
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    It's as good as anything else in their catalog.
    Agreed. Took a few listens but it has really sunk in. Some great melodies here.

    Regards,
    Jon

  12. #337
    Yeah, this album is definitely one of their best. Probably my favorite since Space Revolver.

  13. #338
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    I pulled this out again a couple of weeks ago and I enjoyed it more than I did initially, but it's still near the bottom of TFK albums for me at this point.

    I do like the idea some have mentioned of viewing it as one long concept. I think it's a bit easier to forgive some of the albums quirks that way. Instead of feeling like the shorter songs were not developed as much as I'd like, I can just convince myself it was time to move on to the next part of the concept.

    On the other hand, it is a little weird to think of the album as sort of one continuous piece since we know that was not how it was conceived. From what I've read in interviews there was no grand plan. Perhaps one emerged later as the pieces were being assembled, but I still can't get over the feeling that this was very much a patchwork affair. I admire (in principle) the guts it took to go into the studio with very little material.
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  14. #339
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    The problem I have is more with the recording sound-- I find it a tad too 'dry'-- especially the drums. Stolt used to get a richer, more lush and layered sound on previous albums, IMO. I miss that. It seems more straightforward production-wise this time around.

    Also, I can't really get into their attempt at dark/heavy gestures so much anymore-- it sounds a little too 'shouty' and bombastic to me. It's no surprise then that on the last few albums, I've actually enjoyed their more mellow and less 'epic' songs on the bonus discs more. I enjoy it when the drums underplay-- when the drummer doesn't feel like he has to impress with a constant splash of cymbals and umpteen whacks a minute. When they chill out a bit, and focus more on texture, and atmosphere-- it is refreshing.

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