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Thread: Classic line-up versus original line-up

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    Classic line-up versus original line-up

    Most people accept that when we talk about the classic line-ups of Genesis, DP, PF we're not talking about the original line up.

    However, I've noticed bands themselves over the last 20 or so years have used the term "the orginal xx" when referring to as little as 50% of the "original" band.
    Now, the reason for this traditionally has been to assure people that said band is in fact "most" of the original members and that the "other" band playing under the same name is only 1 shortlived ex-member with a load of unknown session musicians.

    Of course sometimes, only one ex-member might be alive or might be the only person with the rights to the name.

    Another problem though is that some people have started using "original" and "classic" synonymously as if the classic lines ups are the original line ups.

    e.g. Sabbath with a new drummer is obviously not the original line-up despite the advertising and what people have been saying.

    And for example, when Eric Bell & Gary Moore get together to record singles or jam on stage it is not Thin Lizzy, despite what the announcer or advertising might say.

    Thin Lizzy is still an active band led by Scott, Brian and Darren.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    It's a marketing gimmick. "The Famous Ink Spots" had no members in common with "The Ink Spots."

    24-Hour Laundry? It's just the name of the business, luv. Three weeks on the shirt.

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    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Of course sometimes, only one ex-member might be alive or might be the only person with the rights to the name.
    War is a particularly egregious example of this. The manager owns the rights to the name, and only one guy from the original band is still with him. The real War, with four original members, uses the name Lowrider Band.

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    Could be an interesting thread to contrast prog bands for which "original" equals "classic" and those for which it does not ... Camel, Caravan & Wishbone Ash fall into the first group, whilst Yes, Genesis & Tull fall into the second group .. with the latter three undoubtedly being the more successful bands. Couldn't extend the generalisation too far 'though !

  5. #5
    I remember when Steve Howe and Bill Bruford appeared on Regis And Kathie Lee way back in the early 90's, they were both identified as "original members of Yes", though I think that was more the case of a lazy job on behalf of the show's research department (you could tell neither Regis nor Kathie had any clue about Yes...at one point, Regis says "You guys had a really dark image, didn't you?". Uh, ).

    The same thing happened when Artimus Pyle was interviewed when the Lynyrd Skynyrd documentary came out in the late 90's. He was identified as their original drummer, even though that's not even close to being true.

    I also remember Quiet Riot touring in the mid 90's, being billed as "The original lineup", which was physically impossible, given that Randy Rhoads was their original guitarist. But I guess since the two albums he played were never released Stateside, I guess it was easier to say "original lineup" than to say "Metal Health lineup" or "classic lineup".

    As for people using "original lineup" and "classic lineup" interchangeably, I've only seen that being done in the press and advertising. If you're doing an article or review on, say Steve Hackett that's to appear somewhere outside of our little circle, or you're doing advertising for a show he might be doing in your hamlet. One could simply say "Steve Hackett, formerly of Genesis", but as we all know, there's a lot of people who turn their noses up to the 80's era Genesis. You could say "Steve Hackett, Genesis guitarist 1970-1977", but that's kinda awkward sounding, and people have to stop and think "OK, when exactly was it that I stopped liking that band? Not until 1978? OK then, this guy was part of the good version of the band". If you say "Steve Hackett, original Genesis guitarist" that quickly and succinctly communicates this is the guy who played with the band during what a lot of people consider to be their classic years, even if it's completely inaccurate.

    And never assume that the people you're trying to reach already know who you're talking about, or what you mean when you say "classic lineup" or whatever. Just because you and I know such trivia off the top of our heads doesn't mean everyone knows it. There's a lot of people who have just enough of an interest in Genesis to know that Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins were in the band, but don't know the names of anyone else connected with them. Some of them don't even know Phil wasn't the original drummer.

    In the case of that Regis & Kathie Lee appearance, it would have, at that time, taken about 20 seconds for Steve Howe to explain that he joined in 1970, that the band had broken up in 1980, then reformed a couple years later with a different guitarist, and he had played on every album except the first two and last three (has he ever actually admitted how much Jimmy Haun depped for him on Union?). Nowadays, it'd be a bit more convoluted. But then, as Peter Banks noted when he wrote the liner notes for that collection of the original lineup's BBC recordings that came out back in the 90's, Steve likes to pretend that Yes only exists when he's in the band (same thing with Jon, for that matter).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forester1 View Post
    Couldn't extend the generalisation too far 'though !
    You can go a bit further though, the hugely successful line-ups of Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, Iron Maiden, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones were all later line ups, and now considered the classic line-up

    However, the theory falls down when you look at successful original line-ups like, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, The Stranglers.

    But it's fun to delve into this a bit.
    Last edited by PeterG; 08-30-2013 at 03:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    MoAnd for example, when Eric Bell & Gary Moore get together to record singles or jam on stage it is not Thin Lizzy, despite what the announcer or advertising might say.

    Thin Lizzy is still an active band led by Scott, Brian and Darren.
    Actually......Lizzy are now going by Black Star Riders and just put out a new album earlier in the summer under that name. They are still doing Lizzy stuff live, but no longer using the name.

    Steve Sly

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    Member Ten Thumbs's Avatar
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    Um, the 'classic line up' is the one that played the songs that classic rock radio still plays ? Thus the three man Genesis is the 'classic' line up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post

    However, the theory falls down when you look at successful original line-ups like, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, The Stranglers.
    .
    In what alternate universe is the original lineup of Uriah Heep considered "successful"? My understanding is that the most successful period of the band's career was around the Demons And Wizards/The Magician's Birthday/Live period. By the time they had gotten to Demons And Wizards they were on their fifth drummer and second bassist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post

    And for example, when Eric Bell & Gary Moore get together to record singles or jam on stage it is not Thin Lizzy, despite what the announcer or advertising might say.

    .
    Gary Moore is dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benson View Post
    Gary Moore is dead.
    Is he??? I had no idea!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ten Thumbs View Post
    Um, the 'classic line up' is the one that played the songs that classic rock radio still plays ? Thus the three man Genesis is the 'classic' line up.
    Post-Gabriel anyway, their first album with lots of songs given lots of airplay in the 70s and spoken about openly in school, I remember was W&W. But I agree, radio over the last 30 years has usually played tracks from Duke, Abacab, Genesis and Invisible Touch, anything earlier than that is unusual.
    Last edited by PeterG; 08-30-2013 at 08:45 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I remember when Steve Howe and Bill Bruford appeared on Regis And Kathie Lee way back in the early 90's, they were both identified as "original members of Yes", though I think that was more the case of a lazy job on behalf of the show's research department (you could tell neither Regis nor Kathie had any clue about Yes...at one point, Regis says "You guys had a really dark image, didn't you?". Uh, ).
    You're missing the best part. They played the worst-ever version of "Roundabout" on that show. It was horrendously bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    In what alternate universe is the original lineup of Uriah Heep considered "successful"? My understanding is that the most successful period of the band's career was around the Demons And Wizards/The Magician's Birthday/Live period. By the time they had gotten to Demons And Wizards they were on their fifth drummer and second bassist.
    You're right, bad exmaple, strike that from the record of proceeedings. I clearly don't know enough about all their manpower changes.

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    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Most people accept that when we talk about the classic line-ups of Genesis, DP, PF we're not talking about the original line up.

    However, I've noticed bands themselves over the last 20 or so years have used the term "the orginal xx" when referring to as little as 50% of the "original" band.
    Now, the reason for this traditionally has been to assure people that said band is in fact "most" of the original members and that the "other" band playing under the same name is only 1 shortlived ex-member with a load of unknown session musicians.
    As already stated, this is all about money/marketing because someone owns the rights to the name

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Of course sometimes, only one ex-member might be alive or might be the only person with the rights to the name.
    Molly Hatchett

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Another problem though is that some people have started using "original" and "classic" synonymously as if the classic lines ups are the original line ups.
    Thats because a band may take some years and line-up changes before they hit the mainstream public-eye spotlight (if they ever do)...Prog-Heads are going to know the members of Genesis whereas some older mainstream people are going to think Genesis has always been that 3-piece band with Phil Collins singing that put out hits in the early 80s and was plastered on MTV. You should poll older mainstream listeners and see how many of them believe the 3-piece is the classic lineup (or original lineup, for that matter)[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    e.g. Sabbath with a new drummer is obviously not the original line-up despite the advertising and what people have been saying.
    Marketing again. Its easy to fudge a drummer because, unless they have stage antics or public persona, they usually arent a face of the band and are hidden live. Bill Ward isnt exactly a household name with the mainstream public. The visiblr original frontline is intact. Had Bill Ward bit the heads off of bats, threw feces around hotel rooms and, later, had a TV show about the Real Life of his family called "The Wards", things may be different with the marketing. On the other hand, the public "knows" Tommy Lee of Motley Crue....they would have a much more difficult time pulling that off.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    Molly Hatchett
    If I'm not mistaken, I don't think any original members are in the band called Molly Hatchet. They basically sold the rights to a cover band.


    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    Had Bill Ward bit the heads off of bats, threw feces around hotel rooms and, later, had a TV show about the Real Life of his family called "The Wards", things may be different with the marketing.
    Great name would be The Ward. Or The Ward Ward.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Post-Gabriel anyway, their first album with lots of songs given lots of airplay in the 70s and spoken about openly in school, I remember was W&W. But I agree, radio over the last 30 years has usually played tracks from Duke, Abacab, Genesis and Invisible Touch, anything earlier than that is unusual.
    Don't forget Follow You Follow Me.

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    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    Prog-Heads are going to know the members of Genesis whereas some older mainstream people are going to think Genesis has always been that 3-piece band with Phil Collins singing that put out hits in the early 80s and was plastered on MTV. You should poll older mainstream listeners and see how many of them believe the 3-piece is the classic lineup (or original lineup, for that matter)
    Yep, agreed 100%

    Whole bunches of people I know do not even realize that Peter Gabriel was ever in Genesis. Some don't even think Genesis was around in the 70s.

    The only Genesis I own is Collins-era Genesis from the 80s.

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    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, I don't think any original members are in the band called Molly Hatchet.
    That used to be the case, but founding member Dave Hlubec has been back in the band since 2005.

  20. #20
    re: Molly Hatchet

    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    They basically sold the rights to a cover band.
    Apart from the fact that, as has been mentioned, Dave Hlubek is back in the band, the above statement was never true. What happened was that Danny Joe Brown, the band's original lead vocalist, had been leading the band, with guitarist James Ingram (the longest serving non-original member). When Danny had a stroke in the mid 90's, he gave James permission to continue touring with a replacement singer. Not quite the same thing as "selling the rights to a cover band".

    And for the record, I believe only Danny Joe Brown and Duane Roland have passed away. I believe the other original members are all still alive, with a couple of them (Bruce Crump and Steve Holland) playing in a band called Gator Country.

    As I understand it, in a lot of territories, bands are required to have at least one original band member in the group to allow them be able to use the group name.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    You're missing the best part. They played the worst-ever version of "Roundabout" on that show. It was horrendously bad.
    No, I didn't miss "the best part". The point was to mention an instance where Steve Howe was identified as an original member of Yes, not talk about an ill advised musical performance.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Apart from the fact that, as has been mentioned, Dave Hlubek is back in the band, the above statement was never true. What happened was that Danny Joe Brown, the band's original lead vocalist, had been leading the band, with guitarist James Ingram (the longest serving non-original member). When Danny had a stroke in the mid 90's, he gave James permission to continue touring with a replacement singer. Not quite the same thing as "selling the rights to a cover band".
    Okay, whatever. Last time I saw them was before Hlubek rejoined. Glad to hear he's back. He's a helluva player and a nice guy. Never cared for Danny Joe, though. So, perhaps, my source was a bit wrong. But, the band I saw, which must have been around 2004, was a cover band. There were no original members, the singer was doing a Danny Joe impression, which I thought was embarrassing, and they were presenting themselves as something they weren't. At least when Danny got ill in the '80s, they hired a singer (Jamie Farrar?) for the third album, who wasn't imitating him (And, IMO, a far better singer).

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    No, I didn't miss "the best part". The point was to mention an instance where Steve Howe was identified as an original member of Yes, not talk about an ill advised musical performance.
    It was a side note. Don't worry, it wasn't a personal affront to you.

  23. #23
    Every band has an original line-up, but not every band has a classic line-up.

  24. #24
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    You can go a bit further though, the hugely successful line-ups of ........ The Rolling Stones .....were all later line ups, and now considered the classic line-up
    The Brian Jones lineup had a huge public impact. So did the Mick Taylor lineup. So did the Ron Wood lineup....Really hard to say which one had a bigger public impact as all were successful in that regard. Then, of course, you have the sheer number of years that band has existed that an argument can be made that they are all the Classic Lineup

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    The Brian Jones lineup had a huge public impact. So did the Mick Taylor lineup. So did the Ron Wood lineup....Really hard to say which one had a bigger public impact as all were successful in that regard. Then, of course, you have the sheer number of years that band has existed that an argument can be made that they are all the Classic Lineup
    "The biggest impact" I think would be split between the Brian years and the Mick Taylor era. The earliest Stones records were mostly cover tunes, but things like (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction and Get Off Of My Cloud must of sounded like dynamite going off on the turntable when those records first came out. And then there was the furor caused by Let's Spend The Night Together.

    The Mick Taylor years I think are generally considered by a lot of people to be their best period, artistically or whatever. Everyone still drools when you say the words Sticky Fingers or Exile On Main Street.

    By comparison, the Ron Wood years had it's share of hits, and they still pack stadiums and arenas when on tour, but I don't think Start Me Up or Undercover Of The Night set the world on fire the way (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction, Under My Thumb, and Brown Sugar did.

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