Canterbury organ

[GuitarGeek]

There are people, and I'm one of them, that think the Hammond spinet models sound slightly better than the big church consoles for rock. I wish I still had my M3; that thing growled.

I have a hard time differentiating between the different Hammond models, in terms of sound. To me there's a Hammond "sound" and there's different variations on that, but I'm not sure if that's the result of different models or just different drawbar/stop settings. I always thought it might be interesting to line all the different models and do a proper comparison in terms of how each sound.

I know Tony Banks said one of the things he liked about the Model T that he used during the Trick/W&W/ATTWT era was that the stops didn't sound like the normal Hammond organ stops.

As for the M-3, that's what Tom Scholz on Third Stage (and probably the first two Boston albums, as well). I seem to recall someone suggesting it could be hotrodded so that it sounds more like a B-3.

[Progbear]

I have a hard time differentiating between the different Hammond models, in terms of sound. To me there's a Hammond "sound" and there's different variations on that, but I'm not sure if that's the result of different models or just different drawbar/stop settings. I always thought it might be interesting to line all the different models and do a proper comparison in terms of how each sound.

Part of the problem in differentiating is that most players, at least rock and jazz players, stick to only using the two or three leftmost drawbars, so most of them sound pretty much the same as played, anyway. As I understand it, the B3, C3 and RT3 have more “percussion” effects than those found on the spinet models.

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MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

“It doesn't get any more...like this. Than this.” --Anders Lundquist

N.P.:nothing

[Udi Koomran]

I also LOVE Tim Hodgkinson's organ tones with Henry Cow which were later Picchio Dal Pozzo also used
Anyone remember which type of organ they were using ?
Is the fuzz organ solo on The Land Of Grey & Pink a Hammond ? to me it sounds somewhat different
as mentioned a crucal factor of that caterbury organ sound was the fuzz box itself
it would be intrsting to know which fuzz was used by Ratladge Stewart etc.

[calyx]

I also LOVE Tim Hodgkinson's organ tones with Henry Cow which were later Picchio Dal Pozzo also used
Anyone remember which type of organ they were using ?

Here's what Tim had to say when I asked him : "It was a Farfisa Compact Duo. It had a flat sound, no drawbars, with starting transients that made no pretence of being other than electronic. It came with a reverb box, so the idea of putting reverb before other effects came naturally, whereas I think most people had them the other way round. And this led to the fuzzed reverb sound rather than the reverbed fuzz sound, if you see what I mean... After HC, I got into a Yamaha DX21 which had a similar abrupt electric sound so you had to jump between presets to get interesting sound, so in the end I was playing the preset buttons more and faster than the actual keyboard. you can hear it on some of the Work recordings".

As mentioned a crucial factor of that Canterbury organ sound was the fuzz box itself.
It would be interesting to know which fuzz was used by Ratledge, Stewart etc.

Dave Stewart : "I had played guitar (very badly) in The Southsiders and bought a 'Fuzz Face' fuzz box because Jimi Hendrix used one. (I loved Hendrix.) The wah-wah pedal came a little later; but I was still at school when I bought a Schaller model for £14. Anyway, when I realised that Mike Ratledge and Dave Sinclair were playing their organs through these gadgets, I had to do the same. I went out and bought a Rose-Morris 'Duofuzz' because that's what Mike Ratledge used, and persuaded Mont Campbell to get one too (because Hugh Hopper used it!). So it was totally derivative."

[Henrique]

Stewart and Sinclair did play Hammond but most of the time they didn't. Hatfield at the rainbow is definately no Hammond

Oh yes it is! Stewart and Sinclair are Hammond players, through and through.

I also LOVE Tim Hodgkinson's organ tones with Henry Cow... Anyone remember which type of organ they were using ? Is the fuzz organ solo on The Land Of Grey & Pink a Hammond ? to me it sounds somewhat different. As mentioned a crucal factor of that caterbury organ sound was the fuzz box itself it would be intrsting to know which fuzz was used by Ratladge Stewart etc.

Hodgkinson played a Farfisa (also used by Rick Wright on Pink Floyd's early albums), Dave Sinclair of Caravan played a Hammond A-100 and Dave Stewart only ever played one make of organ, the Hammond L122 (see http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater). The fuzz box used by Ratledge and Stewart was a Shaftesbury DuoFuzz.

As I understand it, the B3, C3 and RT3 have more “percussion” effects than those found on the spinet models.

Actually they have the same percussion effects - a choice of second or third harmonic, fast/slow, soft/normal. The B3 and C3 have a slightly fatter basic tone than the spinet models, but a more significant difference is whether the organ is played through a Leslie cabinet, or (in the case of Stewart and others) a 100-watt stack. Adding a fuzz box transforms the sound totally into the classic 'Canterbury' organ tone.

[Pekka]

Did Stewart, Sinclair and Ratledge use the Leslie cabinet at all? If they did it usually did not rotate (except on "Bundles").

[Henrique]

There isn't any good reason to use a Leslie cabinet in 'parked' mode, the whole point is the chorused sound created by the rotating speaker. It sounds like Stewart might have used a Leslie on The Polite Force by Egg, but as far as I know he never owned one. (It's possible they had a Hammond B3 and Leslie in the studio where they recorded the album, that wasn't uncommon in the seventies.)

[A. Scherze]

There isn't any good reason to use a Leslie cabinet in 'parked' mode, the whole point is the chorused sound created by the rotating speaker.

Well, maybe not for you, but some Leslies come with an off setting, and players sometimes install a "brake" circuit on models that don't have one.

[GuitarGeek]

"It was a Farfisa Compact Duo. It had a flat sound, no drawbars, with starting transients that made no pretence of being other than electronic. It came with a reverb box, so the idea of putting reverb before other effects came naturally, whereas I think most people had them the other way round. And this led to the fuzzed reverb sound rather than the reverbed fuzz sound, if you see what I mean..."

Yeah, the running order of effects plays a big part in how they sound. Changing the order of the wah wah and a fuzztone, for instance will change the sound big time. Wah wah into fuzz gives you a more subtle effect, whereas fuzz into wah wah gives a more dramatic effect (perfect for those puking sounds). Also putting modulation effects like flanging or chorus in front of distortion usually doesn't work as well as having them afterwards, though I remember Nick Didkovsky telling me once that he got this really strange effect by plugging a chorus pedal in before his distortion pedal.

[trurl]

Part of the problem in differentiating is that most players, at least rock and jazz players, stick to only using the two or three leftmost drawbars, so most of them sound pretty much the same as played, anyway. As I understand it, the B3, C3 and RT3 have more “percussion” effects than those found on the spinet models.

It's a really subtle thing; it's less than the difference between a Strat and a Les Paul which most average listeners wouldn't even hear. It's probably more like the difference between a Les Paul with modern pickups and one with classic pickups. But it's there if you're a real Hammond geek. It's something in the way the fold-back of the draw-bars is wired and there may be a difference in the percussion as well. Not the settings; that's the same, but the way the percussion affects the drawbars when it's enabled.

[Henrique]

Well, maybe not for you, but some Leslies come with an off setting, and players sometimes install a "brake" circuit on models that don't have one.

That's right, but in the case of Stewart and Ratledge (who played their organs through stacks), it's hard to see why they would switch to a Leslie cab in the studio, only to use it in non-rotating mode.

It's something in the way the fold-back of the draw-bars is wired and there may be a difference in the percussion as well. Not the settings; that's the same, but the way the percussion affects the drawbars when it's enabled.

Good point - apparently the B3 and C3 models are subject to a slight dip in drawbar volume when the percussion is turned on http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/E...sionVolumeDrop. This volume drop doesn't happen with the Hammond L-series.

[A. Scherze]

Some differences with an L.

Hammond tried to eliminate key click as they viewed it as a defect. The L does not have foldback. The lower manual has 7 drawbars, not 9 (no subfundamentals). The keys are the lighter "diving board" ones. It has built-in reverb, speakers, and amp.

I would assume that there are differences in the vibrato/chorus and pre-amp, too.

[A. Scherze]

That's right, but in the case of Stewart and Ratledge (who played their organs through stacks), it's hard to see why they would switch to a Leslie cab in the studio, only to use it in non-rotating mode.

Well, it's a matter of personal preference. Even stopped a Leslie is different from a straight speaker. The tweeter speaker is heard through a horn with a diffuser and then, that sound comes through the louvers. And, there are other factors; such as the response curve of the drivers, the resonance of the cabinet, where the horn is pointing, the location of the Leslie (middle, wall, or corner), and mic techniques.

[Henrique]

Hammond tried to eliminate key click as they viewed it as a defect...

Boy did they get that wrong! That clicky attack is an important part of the Hammond sound, used to great effect by Keith Emerson.

I would assume that there are differences in the vibrato/chorus and pre-amp, too.

Yes, the Hammond B3 / C3 organs have more vibrato and chorus options than the spinet models. All the details you mentioned play a part in making the larger models sound different from the Ls and Ms.

[trurl]

Yeah, but I'm not talking about the options and obvious enhancements like the chorus/vibrato and percussion settings. I mean the real, actual, basic sound of the organ- it may always have been my imagination but I always felt like my M3 was richer sounding harmonically than my CV. Of course, every Hammond has its own character, so maybe it was just those two organs.

[Henrique]

I always felt like my M3 was richer sounding harmonically than my CV. Of course, every Hammond has its own character, so maybe it was just those two organs.

(Interesting list of all Hammond models at http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/models.html.) I haven't played either, but given that the CV predates the M3 by ten years or so, I can imagine the M3's basic tone circuitry might have evolved slightly.

[trurl]

Oh wow... you know, I never considered the CV being an earlier organ. Interesting!

[A. Scherze]

Yes, the Hammond B3 / C3 organs have more vibrato and chorus options than the spinet models.

Actually, I was referring to circuit design, types of tubes, etc.

[A. Scherze]

the CV being an earlier organ.

Parts like capacitors would have aged more, but also might be different in construction/specs.

Also, the M-3 does not have foldback.

[trurl]

Also, the M-3 does not have foldback.

And I think that's really the key.