Which is the greater album- Tales or Relayer?

[Mr. Toad]

I still do not get Relayer. I listened to it and thought it mediorce at best but I do understand that is a highly regard piece of work from Yes so it must be me.

I realize that I am not normal.

[Big Ears]

^ It isn't you and you are perfectly normal.

[Mikhael]

I still do not get Relayer. I listened to it and thought it mediorce at best but I do understand that is a highly regard piece of work from Yes so it must be me.

I realize that I am not normal.

Are any of us here normal? But you're not the only one. I found some of the ice-pick Tele guitar jarring, as well as the battle sequence of Gates. Now, I understand the battle sequence and its importance to the piece, but it seemed to go on doing the same thing for entirely too long. Maybe that was the point though, since "Soon" is such a relief after that. It also seemed quickly and somewhat shoddily recorded as well; some of the vocal harmonies, even in "To Be Over", seemed like they didn't take the time to get them right, and the mix feels a bit off. Also, as cheezy as some of Wakey's sounds could be, I didn't much care for Moraz' choice of sounds. It sounded like someone trying to insert Chic Corea's older, dated fusion patches into a Yessong.

I *did* find that these songs worked better in a live format, on the "Masterworks" tour I believe it was. But then, that was a different keyboardist as well.

Now, please understand - none of this means I don't *like* Relayer; I do. It has some innovative parts, and clearly Yes were stretching their abilities on this one. But I can clearly understand how someone who likes CttE, Fragile, etc. might not care as much for this one. One of these days when I have time on my hands, I'd like to try editing Tales to where it engages me more fully; I think there's a masterpiece lurking inside there somewhere...

[happytheman]

I *did* find that these songs worked better in a live format, on the "Masterworks" tour I believe it was. But then, that was a different keyboardist as well.
.

Igor did a wonderful job on that tour...

[Mister Triscuits]

It sounded like someone trying to insert Chic Corea's older, dated fusion patches into a Yessong.

"Dated" fusion patches? Chick Corea didn't even start using synths until the same year that Relayer was released.

[Jeremy Bender]

One of these days when I have time on my hands, I'd like to try editing Tales to where it engages me more fully; I think there's a masterpiece lurking inside there somewhere...

Me too. I'd leave The Revealing Science of God alone, I think it's a masterpiece. The Remembering would be gutted, I'd chop out large parts of that. The Ancient, I'd leave most of that, but unless Steve Howe comes to my apartment and redoes his guitar/pedal steel parts in the jam before the Leaves of Green section so that they don't sound like fingernails on a chalkboard, it would remain pretty much intact. Ritual would get a lot of the jam before the percussion section > a lot of the percussion section cut. I'd lose about 20-25 minutes overall.

[Guitarplyrjvb]

I think the harmonies in "To Be Over" are the finest on any Yes record! Steve's take on the Telecaster sound on Relayer is very interesting and totally unlike any other Tele player. His Tele was heavily modified, though with the neck pickup replaced with a humbucker. It's really quite amazing how Yes "progressed" from Tales to Relayer. They almost sound like two different groups!

[JIF]

I think the harmonies in "To Be Over" are the finest on any Yes record! Steve's take on the Telecaster sound on Relayer is very interesting and totally unlike any other Tele player. His Tele was heavily modified, though with the neck pickup replaced with a humbucker. It's really quite amazing how Yes "progressed" from Tales to Relayer. They almost sound like two different groups!

I agree with your point about Yes sounding like two different groups from Tales to Relayer. I think that is true. I recall a member of Yes say in an interview once something about how when you bring in a new member, it changes the sound of the band.

[Jeremy Bender]

I was something about how when you bring in a new member, it changes the sound of the band.

I watched a couple of concerts from the original lineup of the Mahavishnu Orchestra on YouTube the other day and I was reminded of a Chris Squire interview (sorry, don't know when or where) where he said that what killed off prog was the Mahavishnu Orchestra. He said that they became obsessed with playing as fast as them --ELP was certainly guilty of it too-- and they got away from what made them successful, which was songwriting and the arrangements. I hear the MO all over Relayer, largely due to Moraz, whose Moog solos are very Jan Hammer-esque.

[JeffCarney]

I watched a couple of concerts from the original lineup of the Mahavishnu Orchestra on YouTube the other day and I was reminded of a Chris Squire interview (sorry, don't know when or where) where he said that what killed off prog was the Mahavishnu Orchestra. He said that they became obsessed with playing as fast as them --ELP was certainly guilty of it too-- and they got away from what made them successful, which was songwriting and the arrangements. I hear the MO all over Relayer, largely due to Moraz, whose Moog solos are very Jan Hammer-esque.

Sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Relayer came out in 1974. Yes were still playing to sports arenas and stadiums for the rest of the decade, so nothing "killed" prog if it is judged by them. And in addition, while Relayer does have some MO components, GFTO really doesn't have any, and it was a hugely successful album. So much was Yes popular at that time that Tormato was the first album to ever ship Platinum. Granted, it probably returned Gold after people heard it, but the point remains ...

[Jeremy Bender]

Sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Relayer came out in 1974. Yes were still playing to sports arenas and stadiums for the rest of the decade, so nothing "killed" prog if it is judged by them

By "killed" I meant "Stopped becoming a vital, forward thinking musical style". Argue all you want that Wind & Wuthering and Tormato and Works I/II, The Missing Piece etc. were even in the same realm as the great albums from those bands, but I'm not buyin' that.

And in addition, while Relayer does have some MO components, GFTO really doesn't have any

Where did I say it did? I hear the MO all over Relayer, largely due to Moraz, I never mentioned GFTO.

and it was a hugely successful album. So much was Yes popular at that time that Tormato was the first album to ever ship Platinum. Granted, it probably returned Gold after people heard it, but the point remains ...

Really, you want to use record sales as a metric? OK then. Boston, Foreigner, Journey and Styx were better bands than ELP, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Gentle Giant in 1978/79.

Of course, you're the same guy who once claimed that pale white British guys trying to sound like 80 year black dudes from Mississippi during the British blues boom was better than the whole decade of music in the 1980's, so, whatever.

[JeffCarney]

By "killed" I meant "Stopped becoming a vital, forward thinking musical style". Argue all you want that Wind & Wuthering and Tormato and Works I/II, The Missing Piece etc. were even in the same realm as the great albums from those bands, but I'm not buyin' that.

I see what you mean. But I was more speaking to Squire's comments. Are you sure he was referring to the music and not sales? And even if he was, his comment makes little sense. In 1977, Yes put out GFTO, an album with almost no MO influence, whatsoever. And one which is generally well regarded and features what many (including Jon Anderson) believe is their ultimate piece of music in "Awaken."

Where did I say it did? I hear the MO all over Relayer, largely due to Moraz, I never mentioned GFTO.Really, you want to use record sales as a metric? OK then. Boston, Foreigner, Journey and Styx were better bands than ELP, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and Gentle Giant in 1978/79.

I've no great desire to use sales as a metric, but if one argues that punk "killed" prog in terms of sales, this is not only objectively disprovable but quite arguably asinine. However, it seems I've misunderstood your (Squire's?) point.

Of course, you're the same guy who once claimed that pale white British guys trying to sound like 80 year black dudes from Mississippi during the British blues boom was better than the whole decade of music in the 1980's, so, whatever.

"Pale" white?

Sounds like deep issues. But I'll go one better in terms of my comment even if I'm not sure I recall it:

As regards popular music; Cream, The Beatles, The Who, Rolling Stones and Jimi Hendrix Experience alone were better than the entire decade of music by all artists combined in the 1980s.

[klothos]

As regards popular music; Cream, The Beatles, The Who, Rolling Stones and Jimi Hendrix Experience alone were better than the entire decade of music by all artists combined in the 1980s.

Im not a product of the 60s generation. I think The Beatles are fantastic! I like a lot of Jimi Hendrix music but certainly not all of it. The Who are hit and miss with me and - regardless to popular opinion - i do not care for Entwistle's bass playing all that much and i even further dislike Keith Moon's all-over-the-place drumming. I could tolerate both better if they locked in together which they seldom did. The Rolling Stones had some great songs from that era but also had a ton of shitty ones - they were at their best with Mick taylor on guitar.

Saying that those bands were better than the entire 80s decade is just a reflection on your personal taste

For my personal taste and as a product of my era, I will take ABC or Duran Duran over the non-Mick Taylor Stones and half The Who's music any day of the week.

[Rufus]

Saying that those bands were better than the entire 80s decade is just a reflection on your personal taste

For my personal taste and as a product of my era, I will take ABC or Duran Duran over the non-Mick Taylor Stones and half The Who's music any day of the week.

WTF , I'm a product of the 80's generation & only U2 will be remembered with any musical significance historically .The Stones , Who , Beatles et al will & are remembered with musical relevance from an historical context so it's more than just preference of. Bands today still cite those musical giants as an influence .Duran Duran & ABC arent .

[klothos]

WTF , I'm a product of the 80's generation & only U2 will be remembered with any musical significance historically .The Stones , Who , Beatles et al will & are remembered with musical relevance from an historical context so it's more than just preference of. Bands today still cite those musical giants as an influence .Duran Duran & ABC arent .

First of all, I said the Beatles were fantastic. I don't argue that at all. im a fan

....but as far as "popular opinion" of what constitutes a gauge for any "great" band? I dont give a crap what the general consensus is on any band or artist -- all I care about is their effect on me. Just because the general consensus believes that many of these bands are "gods" and are highly revered by the population at large, does that mean I should just be a Lemming and accept them as that and not try to explore and question their music for myself? I judge any artist for myself and their impact on me and I stand by what I say: I don't care for half of the Stones body of music, I dont care for many of The Who's "sloppy rhythm section" approach, and - Yes - I will absolutely take Duran Duran and ABC over them any day of the week. U2? I didnt mention them: I like their music up til 1985, after that they lost impact with me. I dont care if half the universe agrees with you: If 9 out of 10 people like Vanilla Ice Cream over Chocolate, You will never convince me that vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate if I prefer chocolate...Hows this for a kicker?: I'll take 70s Funk over most Rock Music any day of the week, too

Its a broad statement to say that "these six bands are better than the entire 80s". Thats kinda crass. That may be a popular opinion but I am one of those that doesn't think so.

[Jeremy Bender]

Are you sure he was referring to the music and not sales?

Again, I apologize for not having the interview at hand (I read it at a book store years ago, but that part stayed with me), he was definitely referring to the music. He specifically cited how "absurd" Ritual had become, close to 30 minutes long in 1976. ELP stretched out Tarkus so much on the BSS tour that I have a 34 minute version from Rotterdam in 1974; of course, that's because Aquatarkus goes on and on and.... but still.

And even if he was, his comment makes little sense. In 1977, Yes put out GFTO, an album with almost no MO influence, whatsoever.

So, they can't have gone through a MO phase in 1975/76 and decided it wasn't working anymore and changed? Wow.

And one which is generally well regarded and features what many (including Jon Anderson) believe is their ultimate piece of music in "Awaken."

Well, Anderson's entitled to his opinion, isn't he? I'll point out that he also thought it was a good idea to put Circus of Heaven on an album instead of burying it alive.

I think the first six minutes of Awaken are incredible, but after Howe's amazing 12-string solo, it goes downhill for me. And those lyrics, yikes! I got off the Yes bus with GFTO, I liked Parallels (an outtake from Chris' solo album) and the first six minutes of Awaken but the rest left me cold, it sounds like a failed attempt to recapture the "classic Yes sound". I'd rate Close to the Edge, The Revealing Science of God and The Gates of Delirium higher than Awaken. The best part of GFTO is the Century Plaza Towers on the cover, I worked in the right one for about six months.

I've no great desire to use sales as a metric, but if one argues that punk "killed" prog in terms of sales, this is not only objectively disprovable but quite arguably asinine. However, it seems I've misunderstood your (Squire's?) point.

Slightly! Where on earth did you get "if one argues that punk "killed" prog in terms of sales" from, I never mentioned that great Satan of progheads at all! Punk never was a factor in terms of record sales in the US (the UK was different); for the media and a hell of a lot of musicians, it was very important.

However, the late 70's SUCKED in terms of mainstream rock in the US; all those bands I mentioned (and all the Zeppelin clones like Heart), I didn't like any of 'em and one, the Steve Perry Journey, I absolutely hated with all the fire of all the suns in the Crab Nebula.

"Pale" white? Sounds like deep issues

Is there anything lamer on the Internet than someone psychoanalyzing a total stranger's comments? No, there isn't.

But I'll go one better in terms of my comment even if I'm not sure I recall it

Again with the changing goalposts. You specifically mentioned the British blues boom, not those bands you listed, that's what I responded to. It was such an absurd, typically proghead comment that I've remembered it years later. You're on a little firmer ground with the bands you listed, but even then they would need * by them [it shouldn't be needed because it's so obvious, but IMHO]:

Cream: lost it after about 1967, even Clapton didn't want to be in the band anymore after hearing The Band's first album; What A Bringdown indeed
The Beatles: don't like the teenybopper hits and the less said about Let It Be, the better; still, they're the greatest rock band ever, so I give them that
The Who: a singles band until A Quick One, they had a great run from that > Quadrophenia, the rest is meh to flat out bad
The Stones: Is Satanic Majesties one of the worst albums by a major rock band or merely the worst Stones album? Again, like The Who, they had a great run, for them from Beggars Banquet > Exile On Main Street but after that, it's very hit and miss and since Tatoo You (which was outtakes and old songs anyway) total miss
The Jimi Hendrix Experience: pretty easy when you only make three albums + a contractual obligation album

I'll add:
Zeppelin: peaked with Physical Graffiti, after that it was heroin addiction, beating the crap out of Bill Graham's employees, car accidents and children dying

I'll take 70s Funk over most Rock Music any day of the week, too

Hmmmmm.....if you added Motown + Stax + Philly soul, maybe!

[klothos]

Hmmmmm.....if you added Motown + Stax + Philly soul, maybe!

most definitely included - i should have just said "I'll take Classic Funk and R&B over most Rock Music any day of the week, too"

[JeffCarney]

So, they can't have gone through a MO phase in 1975/76 and decided it wasn't working anymore and changed?

They can. However, such a change doesn't bode well for the argument that the Mahavishnu Orchestra "killed prog." Yes were still writing 15 minute "epics" and touring with songs like "Close To The Edge" in the set long after Relayer. That statement by Squire, IMO, is utterly over the top, and ridiculous. Squire was a part of the "scene," not me, but that's my opinion. Live with it, argue it ... whatever.

Also, I think the amount of influence MO had on Relayer is being way, WAY overstated.

As far as your comments about "punk" and my defending "prog," I really have no opinion on punk and you're getting into generalities. Punk was hugely influential. I was dealing with a specific statement, apparently made by Chris Squire. And for the record, I don't necessarily think punk killed prog, but it certainly wounded it in some ways. At least in some of the more "hipster" music rags.

I think the first six minutes of Awaken are incredible, but after Howe's amazing 12-string solo, it goes downhill for me.

I relate to much of your thinking on 1970-1974 ELP, but here we are on opposite ends of the planet. I don't know exactly what it adds up to in terms of running time, but to me it's the last six minutes (or five or whatever it is after "Master of images ...") of "Awaken" that is arguably the most profound, dramatic and thrillingly executed arrangement in prog history.

RE: British blues; we're just not on the same page. I actually relate to some of your arguments about it, but I think by trying to put the entire movement into a little bag your "argument" falls flat on whatever face it has. Next time I listen to Side A of Cream's Goodbye I'll probably think of King Crimson's Wetton-era improvisations as much as anything else. A lot went on during that movement. And to write the entire thing off just because you happen to find less validity in being influenced by Black American blues than European Classical music isn't any more reasonable than someone writing off ELP for "ripping off the classics."

[Mister Triscuits]

Cream: lost it after about 1967, even Clapton didn't want to be in the band anymore after hearing The Band's first album; What A Bringdown indeed

That's a pretty funny comment. The Band's first album was actually mid-1968, by which time Cream had already recorded all but three of the songs they would ever do. And if Clapton's heart wasn't in it anymore, you wouldn't know it from the fact that his contribution to those last three songs was "Badge," the best song he ever wrote in his life by a substantial margin.

[Jeremy Bender]

RE: British blues; we're just not on the same page

Let me clarify: what bugged/bugs me about that genre is the whole "white dudes steal from black culture, get rich and meanwhile the black artist is left struggling" thing. Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are just two of the worst examples, but it was rife. Yes, they venerated those guys, and in Eric Clapton's case, he made sure they got paid, but I've always thought it was simply sounded ludicrous for some guy from Scunthorpe or Biggleswade or Sheppton Mallet to pretend that he was from Mississippi. Greg Lake was quite clear that he intentionally sang with a British accent and of course, Keith rejected the "blues orthodoxy" altogether.

I think the starkest example is Murray Lerner's Message to Love Isle of Wight 1970 movie. You have people like Ten Years After and Taste sounding soooooo dated already (much as I admire Alvin Lee and Rory Gallagher) and then ELP and Tull come out and they're full of fire and energy, while sounding thoroughly British.

Mileage, of course, varies widely.

That's a pretty funny comment. The Band's first album was actually mid-1968, by which time Cream had already recorded all but three of the songs they would ever do. And if Clapton's heart wasn't in it anymore, you wouldn't know it from the fact that his contribution to those last three songs was "Badge," the best song he ever wrote in his life by a substantial margin.

I dug out my copy of Chris Welch's excellent Cream biography last night and a few things:

Yes, Music From Big Pink was mid-1968, but as you probably know, Dylan and The Band demoed a bunch of Dylan's songs in 1967 for the purpose of distributing them for people to cover, later released as The Basement Tapes. Clapton heard those 1967 demos and that had a big impact on him. The general consensus in the book was that Cream peaked musically during their Fillmore run in San Francisco in September 1967. There's a funny bit where Bruce describes how they'd been doing the typical 3-4 minute pop song thing but the hippies in San Francisco had a taboo against telling someone they couldn't do something, it was just not done. So when people started yelling "Keep playing!", they did. However, by 1968 those long jams had become an albatross, the crowd expected 15-20 minute versions of N.S.U., Sweet Wine, Toad and especially Spoonful whether the band felt like it or not.

Welch also quotes Clapton telling Bruce in March 1968 "I don't want to do this any more"; they decided to split in May. They slogged on through that last US tour and broke up in November. By that time, Clapton was thoroughly sick of the "God" thing, tired of the volume of the band and he was beyond sick of Bruce and Baker constantly being at each others throat. Yes, the studio songs on Goodbye are good > excellent (I especially like Doing That Scapyard Thing), but by the time they recorded those, they were finished as a band.

I love Cream, along with The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix Experience and Iron Butterfly they were part of the first group of bands that blew my mind, maaaaaaaaan.

Badge Clapton's best song? Better than the electric part of Layla or Bell Bottom Blues? Hmmmm.......

Oh, right, Yes. Um, they opened for Cream at the Albert Hall for the farewell shows.

[JIF]

Actually, Mr. Bender, Yes only opened on the last date of the farewell tour. Deep Purple was the opening act for the remainder of the tour.

[Jeremy Bender]

That's what I wrote: "at the Albert Hall for the farewell shows". How is that ambiguous in any way?

[JIF]

That's what I wrote: "at the Albert Hall for the farewell shows". How is that ambiguous in any way?

Oh. I thought it was only for one show.... The last show... Until the reunion tour. My bad.

[bill g]

All of the opinions (some very strong) about Tales and Relayer bring back fond memories of these wonderful albums and now I'm deeply craving about 2 and a half hours somewhere outside, in the mountains perhaps, where I can listen to these back-to-back and just get lost (and perhaps re-find myself?) in the beauty of it all. I did a lot of hiking in the mid-70s when I was a teen, and Tales was PERFECT music for nature and the outdoors, particularly 'The Remembering'. 'To Be Over' is equally brilliant. So much heart in these 2 gems, I can't really pick one over the other and don't really want to.