Refugee - (Moraz and 2/3 of The Nice)

[yesstiles]

How is the mastering on the Esoteric release?

[JJ88]

Did anyone ever buy this Esoteric re-release? The BBC concert is intriguing.

Re-listening to the Newcastle soundboard tape for the time in years, and it's pretty rough. Not just the recording either. I like him within The Nice, but Jackson's vocals are just appalling by this stage, I'm afraid. And Moraz's synth goes somewhat out of tune for a spell within 'Someday' as well.

[per anporth]

The BBC Concert is fine - the playing is good, Jackson's vocals are ok (others may disagree!), & there's a very good rendition of The Grand Canyon Suite. The mix is a bit odd - Davison's snare & toms are right at the front of the mix, whilst his cymbals almost drop out completely at times. As a consequence, I'd say the sound lacks a bit of bite, or edge - not what you'd necessarily expect of a live recording.

I slightly prefer the sound of the City Hall recording - I think "rough" is unfair - it's got more vitality than most soundboard boots (which tend to be, to my ears, a bit clinical/soulless), & whilst it's not perfectly polished, it's probably no worse than something like "A—" for what is, in effect, a bootleg.

I can't really speak in any critical detail to the remastering of the original lp, other than to say it sounds "fresh" & quite "vibrant".

The sleeve notes (which are a little tardy - Martyn Hanson's original liner notes to the City Hall cd are reproduced in full) indicate that both the original lp & the Newcastle City Hall recording have been remastered by someone called Jean Ristori.

[Dan Roth]

The sleeve notes (which are a little tardy - Martyn Hanson's original liner notes to the City Hall cd are reproduced in full) indicate that both the original lp & the Newcastle City Hall recording have been remastered by someone called Jean Ristori.

Ristori is a long-time Moraz associate. He was a member of Moraz' early group Mainhorse and has worked as an engineer for decades, both in Moraz' studio (when he had one) and other studios. He engineered (and occasionally remastered) a good bit of Patrick's works. Ristori also took the band photo of Yes that is in the Relayer album and was Patrick's keyboard tech on the Relayer tour.

[JJ88]

Thanks, that's more detailed than most reviews I've seen of this. Doesn't seem like the BBC recording is much better than the Newcastle one then. It doesn't seem to have been put out as one of the BBC's transcription discs back in the day.

What doesn't help with that Newcastle release is that it's plastered with noise reduction...at least, the version I have is. It's the reissue with the studio album which I found in a library clearance sale.

[arturs]

Re-listening to the Newcastle soundboard tape for the time in years, and it's pretty rough. Not just the recording either. I like him within The Nice, but Jackson's vocals are just appalling by this stage, I'm afraid. And Moraz's synth goes somewhat out of tune for a spell within 'Someday' as well.

On the one hand, I agree with you that Jackson is really really rough on this. In fact he sounds like he's off his nut. On the other hand, I actually enjoy Newcastle more for the excitement it adds, relative to the studio disc.

[JJ88]

^If nothing else, it is an interesting listen as it's (almost) a complete show. And you get quite a few songs not on the Refugee studio album (though some are old Nice songs, of course).

[JAMOOL]

I just found this album in the bargain bin and have been listening to it non-stop the last two weeks. It is basically as good as any ELP album if you ask me. Way better than anything The Nice ever did. I can only imagine hearing this in 1974 and thinking that prog was alive and well. It sucks that Yes poached Moraz and effectively ended the band but I can't imagine they would've lasted too much longer anyway. Whatever you think of Lee Jackson's vocals, you gotta admit that 1) him blowing out his voice on the very first line of the album is hilarious and 2) if he were a better singer there would probably be more vocal sections. As it there are stretches where I forget the band even has a singer at all!

[rcarlberg]

Whatever you think of Lee Jackson's vocals

Wait, he was trying to sing?

[vostoklake]

I'm reminded of the saying that the reason the critics hated ELP is that they loved The Nice so much. Lead vocals are the only place where you can say that Emerson unambiguously traded "up" - but I think Emmo also said somewhere that they just didn't know how to write for Jackson's vocal range.

Anyway, Refugee freakin' ruled, and I'm glad I've never heard that bootleg which apparently exists with Jackson making racist jokes including the hard N word (considering he took his stage name from Robert E. Lee maybe I shouldn't be surprised, lol)

[Progbear]

I think it was on another thread about Moraz where I heard a rumor circa 1974-ish that Refugee was going to continue with Annette Peacock replacing Moraz. What a switch in style that would have been, from Moraz's flamboyant classically-influenced style to Peacock's avant-jazz piano/Moog/vocoder experimentation!

[Czyszy]

I love this album. It's one of my favorite British '74 prog albums. The longer songs (Canyon, Credo) are perfect in terms of arrangement and structure and Moraz's playing really shines. His piano/keyboard work is way better here than on anything he did with Yes.

Lee Jackson's vocals are definitely much better on the studio recordings than the live performances. I like his vocals on the album, especially Credo (except the atrocious lyric-less adlibs during the keyboard solo) but on the Newcastle City Hall bonus disc (One Left Handed Peter Pan is a particularly bad performance) they can ge really choppy and IMO doing that rasp live was a terrible choice. xD His bass playing on the other hand is pretty stunning tbh.

The drumming is competent. Nothing too flashy but the grooves and rhythms sit well in the mix.

[JAMOOL]

on YouTube you can see The Nice's 2002 reunion show, in case you've ever wondered "how much worse could he possibly be?". one has to wonder if anyone there was unfamiliar with The Nice and if so what they thought of it. the good thing though is Emerson actually sounds quite nimble. I guess whatever his hand problems were they were on and off.

[vostoklake]

on YouTube you can see The Nice's 2002 reunion show, in case you've ever wondered "how much worse could he possibly be?". one has to wonder if anyone there was unfamiliar with The Nice and if so what they thought of it. the good thing though is Emerson actually sounds quite nimble. I guess whatever his hand problems were they were on and off.

I like the comment where Emmo alleges that John Peel gave Germaine Greer an unpronounceable disease

[Mister Triscuits]

on YouTube you can see The Nice's 2002 reunion show, in case you've ever wondered "how much worse could he possibly be?"

Humph. I was there, and it was one of the greatest fucking nights of my life.

[SunRunner2]

I love this album. It's one of my favorite British '74 prog albums. The longer songs (Canyon, Credo) are perfect in terms of arrangement and structure and Moraz's playing really shines. His piano/keyboard work is way better here than on anything he did with Yes.

Lee Jackson's vocals are definitely much better on the studio recordings than the live performances. I like his vocals on the album, especially Credo (except the atrocious lyric-less adlibs during the keyboard solo) but on the Newcastle City Hall bonus disc (One Left Handed Peter Pan is a particularly bad performance) they can ge really choppy and IMO doing that rasp live was a terrible choice. xD His bass playing on the other hand is pretty stunning tbh.

The drumming is competent. Nothing too flashy but the grooves and rhythms sit well in the mix.

I like this album, immensely. Jackson's vocals are fine for the music being played, in my view. I also concur that Grand Canyon and Credo are top notch tracks. Purchased the import album from Capers Corners Records in Shawnee Mission Kansas in mid-1974. It has never left my active Prog rotation since.

[Bytor]

Way better than anything The Nice ever did.

As a big The Nice fan, I have to disagree. But it's not of lesser quality than The Nice. Although it's 2/3rd The Nice, I don't hear them trying to be a better/new Nice necessarily. But maybe it's just me

[yesstiles]

Yes, they were much better than any of The Nice I’ve ever heard. But I’ve only ever heard the album Emerlist Davjack, which was absolutely atrocious. I couldn’t believe that it could have any fans at all. But I’m guessing they have better albums than that.

[lovecraft]

Oh, I thought the Nice debut was the better of their recorded output. Largely good and concise tunes and in The Cry of Eugene, a bona fide psych classic. A lot of their other output I find a bit ploddy.

As for Jacksons vocals, they may be a bit shit bit they've never put me off. I enjoyed the reformed Nice shows very much. Refugee is also too good a thing to be hurt by iffy vocals.

[JAMOOL]

Ars Longa Vita Brevis is better than the debut IMO. not to start a 20 page debate here but to me that is the first bona fide prog rock album. But I still don't know if they're particularly great albums. The ones they did after that were pretty dire. They just straight up ran out of ideas.

fwiw I don't mind Jackson's vocals either. prog is a weird genre in that you're almost thankful for the bad singers because it means the band gets to jam more. those long strung out vocal sections are something I'm not a huge fan of and nobody's letting Jackson do that.

[Bytor]

Ars Longa Vita Brevis is better than the debut IMO. not to start a 20 page debate here but to me that is the first bona fide prog rock album.

I think The Nice was the band that had most of the elements that will come to define progressive rock (Outside of KC - ITCOTCK that is really the first one to put them all together in a "cohesive" way). They really took the psych rock of their first album and pushed the envelope...But as I said, I'm a huge fan of all their stuff, from the Dylan cover peppered with Bach's to the more orchestral/reinterpretation of classics in a rock context to the very good psych rock that is the first album.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Yes, they were much better than any of The Nice I’ve ever heard. But I’ve only ever heard the album Emerlist Davjack, which was absolutely atrocious. I couldn’t believe that it could have any fans at all.

For the sake of argument; Just -why- would you consider it not only atrocious but "absolutely" so?

It displays some traits and treats summoned later on by both The Nice themselves and ELP, admittedly in premature fashion as those approaches certainly weren't anywhere near run-of-the-mill quite yet (the shallow whiff of classical references and interplay etc.) - but the main navel of that record distills into mores of established British psychedelia anno 1967, which was indeed the band's year of formation and the recording itself (September-October, if I'm not entirely mistaken).

Their attempt at garage-like sonic affilities seems a bit diluded in places, but these were rather inexpensive dispositions for a level of instrumental arrangement which should have beckoned budgets far beyond their reach. A couple of the songs somehow appear to suffer accordingly, notably where effect tends at the epic (such as on the one near-classic track here, "The Cry of Eugene"), but the fact remains that The Nice didn't tackle leverage on par with a Moodies Days of Future Passed or even Family's Music In a Doll's House - both of which where examples of early ambitious bands who were invested with firm backing of production costs by their respective labels.

I think The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack is a fine, not truly good or great debut. Also in the wake of what they became. Side 1 of their final album, Nice (September '69) contains some marvellous studio ideas symptomatic of following grace, but the live version of "She Belongs to Me" (one of their Dylan covers) features some of the most amazingly exhuberant and energetic improvisations I ever heard performed on the Hammond. Not for show-off quality but pure intensity and chemistry within.

Humph. I was there, and it was one of the greatest fucking nights of my life.

A former acquaintance of mine, Mr. Sven E. (editor of long-gone Norwegian fanzine Tarkus), assessed just the same thing. As a teen in London he'd seen Syd/Floyd at the Middle Earth club (I believe), KCrim at one of their '69 Marquee gigs and Family the year after - and he'd also caught The Nice sometime in late '69. That 2002 reunion gig he witnessed was apparently quite a spectacle and musically very worthwhile. Emerson appeared on a much freer note than with ELP, stressing the colours of creative elements in tone and timbre and very obviously enjoying the hell out of himself.

As for Jacksons vocals, they may be a bit shit bit they've never put me off. [...] Refugee is also too good a thing to be hurt by iffy vocals.

I concur. Nowhere near a good singer, but his voice hardly gets to stay around to ruin much either. His singing on that debut Jackson Heights isn't terrible. And while his vocal input on the Refugee wears thin pretty soon, it's basically there for mere obligations or mandatory standards of form - at least it would seem that way. Few and far between, but performing their dues in the context all the same. Moraz and Davison are the stars on that album, as I hear it.

[JJ88]

Yes, they were much better than any of The Nice I’ve ever heard. But I’ve only ever heard the album Emerlist Davjack, which was absolutely atrocious. I couldn’t believe that it could have any fans at all.

A very odd comment. You'd better 'believe' that for me, it's their best album. There's more stylistic unity to the debut than on subsequent albums, although I think all of them do have much to recommend. I think the Nice also have a lighter touch than ELP, which some find appealing.

I've played The Nice reunion live CD a few times and my memory is that it was fine. Emerson was playing fairly well in that period. But I wish there was more of The Nice within that- some of the set was Emerson's solo band.

[Jaco]

A very odd comment. You'd better 'believe' that for me, it's their best album. There's more stylistic unity to the debut than on subsequent albums, although I think all of them do have much to recommend. I think the Nice also have a lighter touch than ELP, which some find appealing.

I've played The Nice reunion live CD a few times and my memory is that it was fine. Emerson was playing fairly well in that period. But I wish there was more of The Nice within that- some of the set was Emerson's solo band.

I was at the London 2002 show and I think Keith Emerson was quoted as saying he wanted a sort of back up to the Nice for that tour as he wasn’t sure there would be enough ‘pull’ in just a Nice headline reunion. Almost all my friends that went said they would have loved more Nice and less KE Band/ ELP material and I totally agree. Also so great to see an in form Brian Davison, lovely jazzy touch , very different to CP.

[yesstiles]

For the sake of argument; Just -why- would you consider it not only atrocious but "absolutely" so?

It displays some traits and treats summoned later on by both The Nice themselves and ELP, admittedly in premature fashion as those approaches certainly weren't anywhere near run-of-the-mill quite yet (the shallow whiff of classical references and interplay etc.) - but the main navel of that record distills into mores of established British psychedelia anno 1967, which was indeed the band's year of formation and the recording itself (September-October, if I'm not entirely mistaken).

Their attempt at garage-like sonic affilities seems a bit diluded in places, but these were rather inexpensive dispositions for a level of instrumental arrangement which should have beckoned budgets far beyond their reach. A couple of the songs somehow appear to suffer accordingly, notably where effect tends at the epic (such as on the one near-classic track here, "The Cry of Eugene"), but the fact remains that The Nice didn't tackle leverage on par with a Moodies Days of Future Passed or even Family's Music In a Doll's House - both of which where examples of early ambitious bands who were invested with firm backing of production costs by their respective labels.

I think The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack is a fine, not truly good or great debut. Also in the wake of what they became. Side 1 of their final album, Nice (September '69) contains some marvellous studio ideas symptomatic of following grace, but the live version of "She Belongs to Me" (one of their Dylan covers) features some of the most amazingly exhuberant and energetic improvisations I ever heard performed on the Hammond. Not for show-off quality but pure intensity

To be honest, I don’t know anymore. I bought the album about 10 years ago and played it twice through. I hated it so much. I immediately sold it. That’s something I very rarely do as I have held onto virtually all of my 10,000 albums in my music room.