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Thread: Pop Song Form: When Did the Repetitive "Hooky" Chorus Become the Norm?

  1. #1
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Pop Song Form: When Did the Repetitive "Hooky" Chorus Become the Norm?

    I started thinking about this because there's an upcoming project for which I might attempt to write a pop tune or two. I've been writing instrumental prog/fusion type stuff for the last couple of decades, but there was a brief period in the early '80s when I tried to write some vocal pop music. Of course, with prog and fusion, there's no rules about form, but with pop, there is, whether it's official or not.

    Here's the thing: I was weaned on the pop music of the '60s; most prevalently The Beatles, but also Motown, The Turtles, The Hollies, The Association, etc. And toward the later '60s, Hendrix, Zeppelin, Cream and that sort of heavier pop/rock. It seems to me that in those days, the hook/chorus was rarely a four bar pattern that repeats... and repeats; it might've repeated once and then moved on. Take just about any Beatles song (except for the coda of "Hey Jude") and if there was any part of the song you could identify as "the hook," it was just the strongest part of the melody. In fact there often wasn't a chorus; for example "Bus Stop" by The Hollies or "Yesterday" by The Beatles; there is no chorus, just a verse and a bridge. In "Ticket to Ride," there's a chorus where they repeat the lyric, "she's got a ticket to ride" three times, but each time, the melody is a little different. I could cite dozens of examples of early rock/pop songs that don't have a repetitive chorus. And heck, in the "tin pan alley" era when show tunes became jazz standards, they never had chorus sections, let alone a four bar repeating pattern.

    So I'm just curious; when did the repetitive chorus thing come into play? Can I avoid it and write anything that would even be considered as pop?

  2. #2
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    I don't know when it started, but I'd say it's become a lot worse since 'cut & paste' songwriting became possible in the '90s. It's an easy way to bang out dozens of 'songs' without any effort.
    I don't see why it would be necessary for you to conform to this lazy style of songwriting. Have fun and write something you will like!

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    the Disco era? As in "Love to love you, baby"?
    "Normal is just the average of extremes" - Gary Lessor

  4. #4
    problem is no pride, the stuff you were weened on was the greatest music ever lol can't be topped hahaha for my ears 60s pop is king.

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    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I think if you can "churn out" anything as good as Bus stop, or Yesterday It would be a fantastic accomplishment! This is why I hate the whole "what is prog?" paradigm, because good music can be melodic without clinging to a chorus repeated at various intervals. and set verses, followed by the obligatory bridge/solo/fade. I think a whole song could be a bridge and if it is well written, It can still be very pleasing to the ears. By all means - crank up the pop and keep it real.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the replies, guys! Don't worry, I will not write any formulaic pop music, especially not anything like most of the shit that's popular today! I couldn't if I tried; I hate repetitiveness and I purposefully back away from common chord progressions like the grossly overused I-V-vi-IV one. And I have no delusions about scoring any sort of top 40 hit. Contemplating trying my hand at writing popish vocal music again just had me thinking about form and conformity. And I do still wonder when pop changed to that repetitive chorus format. Maybe one of our music historians can enlighten me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbassdrum View Post
    the Disco era? As in "Love to love you, baby"?
    You may be right! "Staying Alive," "Don't Leave Me This Way"... Sheesh, and to think that was happening during prog's heyday.

  8. #8
    I'd say the form hasn't changed radically. Even in the Hollies tune it is bunched in groups of 8 bar phrases.




    I'd call that tune as
    Intro (4 bars), Verse (Aminor section = 16 bars in groups of 4 bars in a kind of AABA pattern), Chorus (C major section =16 bars as two groups of 8 bars), Verse 2 (same as one), Solo (variation on 4 bar intro x 2 =8 bars), Chorus 2 (same as 1st) Verse 3 (same as one).

    so
    verse1 chorus1 verse2 solo chorus2 verse3 all in 16 bar increments except the solo.

    Compare that to any current pop tune (say this one):



    and there isn't much difference...everything is grouped in sections of 4 bars and 8 bars. Even though the second tune has the same two chords through out, everything on top of it changes in a verse chorus bridge sections.
    Intro (4 bars) Verse (16 bars grouped in two sections of 8 bars) Chorus (16 bars grouped into 4 sections of 4 bars) Verse 2 (same as 1st) Chorus 2 (same as first with a cntr. pnt montone line superimposed) Bridge (16 bars in two groups of 8 like the chorus bit obviously different) Chorus 3 (16 bars same as bridge in that it has the the bridge theme and the chorus1 theme on top of it)
    Chorus 4 (16 bars and has superimposed cntr. pnt. line from chorus 2 displaced by an 8th note)
    so
    Verse1 chorus1 verse2 chorus2, bridge, chorus3 chorus4 all in 16 bar increments.

    Neither song has a lot of chords but at least the Hollies have some interesting chord progressions (in what I am calling he chorus) but both have a lot of depth for what appear to be simple pop songs.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fictionmusic View Post
    I'd say the form hasn't changed radically. Even in the Hollies tune it is bunched in groups of 8 bar phrases.




    I'd call that tune as
    Intro (4 bars), Verse (Aminor section = 16 bars in groups of 4 bars in a kind of AABA pattern), Chorus (C major section =16 bars as two groups of 8 bars), Verse 2 (same as one), Solo (variation on 4 bar intro x 2 =8 bars), Chorus 2 (same as 1st) Verse 3 (same as one).

    so
    verse1 chorus1 verse2 solo chorus2 verse3 all in 16 bar increments except the solo.
    Hmmm, what you're calling the chorus sounds/feels like a bridge to me, David.

    The second song kinda had me cringing, at least until the bridge, when there was finally some melody. I liked when they superimposed the bridge and the chorus. I always liked that sort of thing; a great example is Nik Kershaw's "Wouldn't It Be Good," where he does the same kind of thing with the verse and the chorus at the end.

  10. #10
    yah it does sound bridge like but it happens twice and if the c chord in the what I call is the verse, then the section after that would be half a verse. (like 4 bar verse 1, 4 bar verse 2, 4 bar chorus, 4 bar verse 3). No matter, a wink is as good as a nod.


    I love the second song and like the way the two chords get slightly modified to define the sections.

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    Hoo Boy.

    Interesting question. I'd say that it comes down to this being an era in which the Big Time Music Business has it all figured out. They know what it takes to make a hit, and literally have it down to a mathematical formula. That leads to a number of consequences.

    - Many hit songs are now written by committee: there's a beatmaker who programs the drum machine, a top-liner who writes the vocal line and lyrics, and a producer who ties it all together; and what they're trying to come up with is more an instantly memorable playground chant over a danceable beat than what you or I might call a real song. Interestingly they often aren't quite what we'd call musicians - the beatmaker and producer will be DJs who can only play turntables and drum machine, while the top-liner might be a 16-year-old girl right out of high school who has a great ear for a pentatonic playground chant but knows little about music otherwise. And not being musicians is all to the good when it comes to writing hits, because they hear music the way the public hears it, not like musicians do, are thus unburdened with musicians' ideas of "hipness" and can give the public what it wants. It's a ideal combination of absolute musical innocence and total business commerciality.

    - There's also the matter of efficiency - if you know exactly what a hit song needs, then it's smart to put just that in but nothing more, and save yourself unnecessary work.

    - And finally, you increase the chances of it being a hit if you maximize the "meat" of the song, which is that chorus people can't stop singing to themselves. Why bother with a clever bridge when all the people want to hear is that hook line. They want to hear it again, so you give it to them again, and again, and again, and.... It's like selling soda, where the real point is the sweetness and fizziness, so you want to put in a maximum of cheap sugar and even-cheaper carbonated water, and a minimum of expensive flavorings. Think of the song as a commercial for itself, and you'll be on the right track.
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 08-02-2013 at 02:16 PM.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Pop music is certainly more formulaic and simplistic now than any time since the advent of the 3-minute single. I would suggest there's a good bit of formula in early jazz singles (head - solo - solo - solo - tail) but even during the heyday of bop there were many many exceptions.

    Not so true today; as you say (and others have noted) the ubiquitous use of computer software to construct songs (as well as lay down beats and program sampled instruments) has made a "producer" out of every dude with a DAW.

    What's even worse to my ears is the near-universal use of 4/4 beats, major scales and predictable progressions.

    A whole generation of kids has grown up without any appreciation for artistry, melody, emotion or intrigue in music. To them it's just a product -- like Cheerios.

  13. #13
    Hey Dave, nice to see That's Not My Name getting some respect. I can't remember if that was a song we talked about in one of our rants but I loved it from the moment I heard it, much to the chagrin of a lot of my friends!
    I don't believe in 'guilty pleasures'. A good tune is a good tune is a good tune.
    The whole overlayed end section is curiously psychedelic.

  14. #14
    I think it's a mistake to believe that a pop song MUST contain ANY repetitive, or even repeated, sections, or that there are rules which must be followed, or that attempts to make it "popular" or "commercial" should have anything to do with it. The groups you mentioned did plenty of songs with various structures. I think of (nearly) all of my solo work as pop songs, and have never tried to stick to a specific form, just the opposite if anything! I find it a never-ending quest like a vast world which continues unfolding and opening before me as I clamber along.

    >So I'm just curious; when did the repetitive chorus thing come into play? Can I avoid it and write anything that would even be considered as pop?

    Absolutely, no question about it!

    Bob
    www.bdrak.com

  15. #15
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    repetitive chorus have been a pet peeve of minee ever since (and even before) the first few albums I started buying (around age 11), but this became (I guess that's why I entered the LP-buying world with prog albums).... and it became very much intolerable when I first started toking around age 14) and listening to music.... especially with the headphones... It really disgusted me from certain types of pop.

    Repetition of catchy moments of melodies is the best way to "hook you up" and get you to hum it even without wanting to... it's also called brainwashing or filling your brains with crap.

    It wa there with the Beatles I want To Hold Your Had and t's stll here today
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    I think it's a mistake to believe that a pop song MUST contain ANY repetitive, or even repeated, sections, or that there are rules which must be followed, or that attempts to make it "popular" or "commercial" should have anything to do with it.
    I know, I know, Bob. Those were just thoughts I was having before actually starting to write.... and when I get started, it'll likely be the way I always do it; just go with the flow and forget about any preconceptions about pop as opposed to any other type of music. Perhaps I was second guessing myself because when I made a demo of shorter vocal tunes 30 years ago, record companies were telling me the stuff had no strong hooks and wouldn't sell. Today, I don't really give a shit, but I did then. Maybe I'm experiencing some post-traumatic stress over it. Anyway, I just found myself thinking about form and wanted to discuss it.

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    Mod or rocker? Mocker. Frumious B's Avatar
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    "I've seen all good people turn their heads each day so satisfied I'm on my way. I've seen all good people turn their heads each day so satisfied I'm on my way. I've seen all good people turn their heads each day so satisfied I'm on my way. I've seen all good people turn their heads each day so satisfied I'm on my way. I've seen all good people turn their heads each day so satisfied I'm on my way..."

    Just sayin.

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    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I have to admit. I still love Born to be wild - Chorus and all. It rocks, it shreds, and yeah, it repeats. Same with Magic carpet ride. (listening to a little Steppenwolf this morning)

  19. #19
    It's been going on for awhile. I mean, even creative - even subversive - songwriters like Steely Dan used it a lot, right? (Rikki Don't Lose That Number, Reelin' in the Years, etc.)

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    it's probably always been there; here's a list of the top 20 of the American Top 40 ... from 1971:
    20: THE NIGHT THEY DROVE OLD DIXIE DOWN - JOAN BAEZ
    19: DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN - LEE MICHAELS
    18: MR. BIG STUFF - JEAN KNIGHT
    17: YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND - JAMES TAYLOR
    16: BROWN SUGAR - ROLLING STONES
    15: TREAT HER LIKE A LADY - CORNELIUS BROTHERS & SISTER ROSE
    14: SMILING FACES - UNDISPUTED TRUTH
    13: WANT-ADS - HONEYCOMBS
    12: TIRED OF BEING ALONE - AL GREEN
    11: ME & BOBBY McGHEE - JANIS JOPLIN
    10: KNOCK THREE TIMES - TONY ORLANDO & DAWN
    9: JUST MY IMAGINATION (RUNNIN' AWAY WITH ME) - TEMPTATIONS
    8: TAKE ME HOME, COUNTRY ROADS - JOHN DENVER WITH FAT CITY
    7: GO AWAY LITTLE GIRL - DONNY OSMOND
    6: INDIAN RESERVATION - PAUL REVERE & THE RAIDERS
    5: HOW CAN YOU MEND A BROKEN HEART - BEE GEES
    4: ONE BAD APPLE - THE OSMONDS
    3: IT'S TOO LATE - CAROLE KING
    2: MAGGIE MAY - ROD STEWART
    1: JOY TO THE WORLD - THREE DOG NIGHT


    More than a few of those might qualify. The Archies 'Sugar Sugar' was from 1969, but the OP's question was 'when did it become the norm?
    "Normal is just the average of extremes" - Gary Lessor

  21. #21
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavus Torabi View Post
    Hey Dave, nice to see That's Not My Name getting some respect. I can't remember if that was a song we talked about in one of our rants but I loved it from the moment I heard it, much to the chagrin of a lot of my friends!
    To each his own. I was annoyed by 0:15.

  22. #22
    Jefferson James
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    I've been thinking about this thread for a whole day now and I can't come up with a fuckin' thing. So many cool pop songs with no chorus whatsoever, like "Last Train to Clarkesville".

    Very interested in hearing your pop stuff, Ernie!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KerryKompost View Post
    I've been thinking about this thread for a whole day now and I can't come up with a fuckin' thing. So many cool pop songs with no chorus whatsoever, like "Last Train to Clarkesville".
    Yeah, but that was forty-five years ago. Sure, "Last Train..." is a great pop song, and so is "Yesterday", or for that matter "Roundabout" - but that was back then. This is now. And the question is whether a mass audience of 12-year-olds conditioned by decades of "R&B" that really amounts to playground chants with a bit of music under them will still hear something like "Bus Stop" as a catchy, current pop tune. Something with a more-than-pentatonic, un-shoutable melody, and no real chorus. Or have the musical boundaries for an acceptable pop single contracted to only that one formula? Or for that matter, to the other formula, the "Bon-Jovi-with-Autotune-and-a-twang" of current "country" music.

    Now, granted, Ernie's not going to be writing for 12-year-olds listening to pop radio. But I still think this is a legitimate question in this particular discussion.

  24. #24
    Jefferson James
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    It's definitely a legit question and I stated I couldn't come up with an answer ie. I cannot come up with a definitive answer to "when did the repetitive chorus thing come into play?" I mentioned "Last Train to Clarksville" because there are tons of songs, old or new, that don't have a chorus. I mean, Radiohead, right? "Creep" has a chorus, but is there a chorus to "Everything in its Right Place"?

    As for the question, "can I avoid it and write anything that would even be considered as pop?", Bob Drake already nailed it, which is, "of course!", assuming Ernie is NOT writing with 12-year-olds in mind.

  25. #25
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Maybe I'm just thick, but how does "Last train to Clarksville" not have a chorus?
    Oh, no, no, no
    Oh, no, no, no
    And I don't know
    If I'm ever coming home

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