Pop Song Form: When Did the Repetitive "Hooky" Chorus Become the Norm?

[fictionmusic]

Hey Dave, nice to see That's Not My Name getting some respect. I can't remember if that was a song we talked about in one of our rants but I loved it from the moment I heard it, much to the chagrin of a lot of my friends!
I don't believe in 'guilty pleasures'. A good tune is a good tune is a good tune.
The whole overlayed end section is curiously psychedelic.

I thought so too. They were one of the few pop bands I had to listen to for a project I was involved with that I actually liked.

Another pop band I liked with a repetitive chorus was this one:

[jkelman]

You're talking to someone who has been into the Dead for about 26 years now, I have all the studio albums, most of the originally released live albums (Steal Your Face being the lone exception), and quite a few of the archival releases (including the first 24 Dick's Picks releases, several of the Road Trips, and the five disc Grateful Dead Movie Soundtrack). I've got a huge collection of live shows from all eras besides that, plus I actually got to see the Dead twice (once in 90 and again in 91).

Yes, Jerry was a "heavyweight" as a guitarist. He's certainly one of my favorite players, that's for sure. And he was a fine singer and songwriter. But I think he also tended to be a bit lazy about certain things. Most of the band's "psychedelic" era material got dropped because Jerry felt it was "too uncomfortable" to play, by which I think he meant that it required too much practice and rehearsal to play those songs.

There's also things like Weather Report Suite, which was only played in it's entirety for about a year before being retired, and also Blues For Allah which was only played, I believe, three times (not counting a "Blues For Allah Jam" few years later, on the occasion of the assassination of Anwar El-Sadat).

Consider also, that when the surviving original members regrouped as The Other Ones in 2003, their setlists regularly included all three of the songs from side one of Anthem Of The Sun, St Stephen, The Eleven, and Weather Report Suite, ie many of the songs that had been dropped from the repertoire years earlier. That leads me to suspect Jerry was the main instigator in moving towards "simpler" music.

Also, Slipknot (and Help On The Way for that matter) was another one that went in and out of rotation over the years. I believe I read that after 77, they played it once or twice in 78, then not again until something like 82 or 83, and then it got dropped again until 89, after which time it was played more regularly. And I have at least one show (albeit one from the 90's, I think by which time Jerry had fallen off the wagon again) where Jerry totally botches the written part of Slipknot.

Sure, he was inconsistent. And you're right about Slipknot - both that after 1977 it didn't reappear until 1989, but then was a semi-regular part of setlists (insofar as anything was) from then forward. And I've got the show where he botched it. There's no doubt that a combination of substance abuse and poor health contributed to a lot of his problems.

As for dropping the psychedelic stuff? Personally I was just fine with that, as the material that made it through to be played regularly - st stephen, dark star, the other one, morning dew, minglewood blues, death don't have no mercy (revived in 89) - were the ones I tended to like most anyway.

He may have been lazy, and he may not have liked to rehearse, but overall, his playing improved consistently over the years, imo. His ability to navigate changes the way he did was rare for someone in the rock biz, to be honest, and if you look at his solo work, including his acoustic work with Old & In the Way, the JG Acoustic Band, and his later work with Grisman, he was a tremendously broad player as well. Heck, he was a pretty damn fine banjo player and not bad on pedal steel either (compared to Weir, whose early slide guitar work, which I am just hearing on the just released Dave's Picks Vol 7, was often downright cringeworthy).

My issue is not with anything you've written, though; it's with the view of not just Garcia but the dead as a bunch of acid-addled hippies (heck, I subscribed to that view, too, until recently, and am embarrassed to learn how wrong I was) whose career stopped in the early '70s. He may not have performed Blues for Allah more than a couple times live, but the album demonstrated capabilities well-beyond what folks unaware beyond the cursory would ascribe to both Garcia and the group as a whole. Hell, even the studio recordings that are flawed, like Terrapin Station (I largely blame the producer for that) and even their studio swan song, Built to Last, were not without their gems. But the Dead was, for the most part, not a studio group, though they could occasionally pull it out and create some real masterpieces (I happen to love Workingman's Dead and American Beauty because, while they were a move towards greater song form, dammit if they couldn't do that incredibly well also!).

But with now close to 100 live shows in my collection, while there are definitely some flaws (vocally, they were very inconsistent and someone should have fired Donna G long before she left - her caterwauling in Playing in the Band never fails to make me cringe, even as it comes at climactic peaks that should be real highs), there's a lot more great stuff than weak stuff in all the shows. Even years that are considered weaker have moments of strength, as it turns out.

Anyway i babble. My issue, like i said, is more about folks (including me before I found out how wrong i was) who write the Dead off. Even at their most flawed, and even if Garcia was too lazy to want to put in a lot of rehearsal time, they were head and shoulders above so many other rock groups from an improvisational perspective, and it's what keeps me going back to the well for more.

[jkelman]

I'd be more into bluegrass music in general if there were more bluegrass bands who played stuff like Victim Or The Crime or Mountains Of The Moon.

Damn straight!

[jkelman]

And you should listen to them straight once.

Have never listened to the any other way. Sure, they can be sloppy, their live vocals ranged from transcendent to travesty, but there simply wasn't a rock band out there that could touch them for sheer improvisational freedom. That they segued between songs so spontaneously without preconception/prior discussion makes them the closest thing to a jazz aesthetic, imo, that you'll find in the rock world.

Rather than looking at the flaws, try listening for their remarkable simpatico and ability to move, as one, without prior planning. Do they fail at times? Sure, that's what happens when you take risks; but what keeps me interested in the Dead (suddenly, after pretty much ignoring them for most of my life) is that the do (or did, rather) take risks, each and every night. Some nights the magic failed them; but when it didn't, there really wasn't a rock band on the planet that I've heard who could touch them.

[rcarlberg]

Sure, they can be sloppy, their live vocals ranged from transcendent to travesty, but there simply wasn't a rock band out there that could touch them for sheer improvisational freedom. That they segued between songs so spontaneously without preconception/prior discussion makes them the closest thing to a jazz aesthetic, imo, that you'll find in the rock world.

Rather than looking at the flaws, try listening for their remarkable simpatico and ability to move, as one, without prior planning. Do they fail at times? Sure, that's what happens when you take risks; but what keeps me interested in the Dead (suddenly, after pretty much ignoring them for most of my life) is that the do (or did, rather) take risks, each and every night. Some nights the magic failed them; but when it didn't, there really wasn't a rock band on the planet that I've heard who could touch them.

Glad you enjoy that sort of thing. I appreciate risk-taking, but don't feel the need to burden myself with "failed," "sloppy," "travesty" music. Life's too short.

[Jerjo]

My neighbors were painting their garage on Sunday and were blasting some mix of country and pop off someone's phone or pod through a cheap rig. Every time I stepped outside I heard either some wretched country crap, or dance songs. The country was beastly enough but at least there may have been a couple hundred words in the entire song. The dance pop was indeed the most repetitive crap I have ever heard, far worse than the pop I grew up with. That damn "tonight it's gonna be a good night" song? All they do is repeat that fucking line about 8 hundred times and then sing "let's do it" another 8 hundred times. What kind of a simple mind does it take to listen to this shit all the time?

[Baribrotzer]

That damn "tonight it's gonna be a good night" song? All they do is repeat that fucking line about 8 hundred times and then sing "let's do it" another 8 hundred times. What kind of a simple mind does it take to listen to this shit all the time?

You don't listen to it.

You dance to it.

Or, you play it as a lifestyle accessory, to create a happy, fun-loving mood. And, to show cool people that you're cool as well because you like the same music they do. Those idiotic lyrics? They're just an accompaniment to the beat, and the beat is what counts. Think back to such Seventies hits - which handily outsold every prog album - as "Dance. Dance. Dance. Yowza, Yowza, Yowza", or "Get Down and Boogie", or "Fly, Robin, Fly. Fly up to the Sky". Same sort of thing: it's all about the party, the dancing, the social scene, and the music is just something that helps those happen and by design, does nothing more.

Or, in other words it's NOT about the music.

[GuitarGeek]

Glad you enjoy that sort of thing. I appreciate risk-taking, but don't feel the need to burden myself with "failed," "sloppy," "travesty" music. Life's too short.

Well, that's your loss. You're the missing out on the great music they did in the late 60's and early 70's.

[JJ88]

You don't listen to it.

You dance to it.

Or, you play it as a lifestyle accessory, to create a happy, fun-loving mood. And, to show cool people that you're cool as well because you like the same music they do. Those idiotic lyrics? They're just an accompaniment to the beat, and the beat is what counts. Think back to such Seventies hits - which handily outsold every prog album - as "Dance. Dance. Dance. Yowza, Yowza, Yowza", or "Get Down and Boogie", or "Fly, Robin, Fly. Fly up to the Sky". Same sort of thing: it's all about the party, the dancing, the social scene, and the music is just something that helps those happen and by design, does nothing more.

Or, in other words it's NOT about the music.

Quite, and as I said on another thread, it's deeply regrettable that we seem to be returning to this shallow sound again.

It's entirely possible to make 'dance' friendly records with some intelligence, either lyrical or musical, sometimes both- I would flag up the sort of work Gamble and Huff were doing in the 70s at Philadelphia Records. And that 'Yowsah Yowsah Yowsah' record aside (which at least was very early in their recording career), I like what Chic did too- there was some class to it.

[Gruno]

Well, that's your loss. You're the missing out on the great music they did in the late 60's and early 70's.

How can it be a loss to someone that doesn't care for what that 'loss' is?