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Thread: Re-Recorded Albums

  1. #51
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuz View Post
    The sterile, cheesy, wimpy sounds of the 80s didn't start rearing it's head until the mid-80s
    To my ears, a lot of what I lump in with the rest of the 80s cheese started with the crappy new wave stuff that became pretty ubiquitous by the late '70s.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    I would date it from the introduction of the Yamaha DX7 in 1983.
    Plus the advent of digital sampling keyboards, the introduction of the Emulator II and Ensoniq Mirage in 1984 put sampling in the hands of musicians who couldn’t dream of affording it before. This was fine for bands like the Art of Noise, OMD and Depeche Mode, who actually used sampling in creative and interesting ways. But once Akai introduced their S900 in 1986, extending sample lengths, the horrible precedent of “sample loops taken from other people’s records” began, and went on to become the dominant form of popular song “composition” in the 90s and beyond.

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    MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    Plus the advent of digital sampling keyboards, the introduction of the Emulator II and Ensoniq Mirage in 1984 put sampling in the hands of musicians who couldn’t dream of affording it before. This was fine for bands like the Art of Noise, OMD and Depeche Mode, who actually used sampling in creative and interesting ways. But once Akai introduced their S900 in 1986, extending sample lengths, the horrible precedent of “sample loops taken from other people’s records” began, and went on to become the dominant form of popular song “composition” in the 90s and beyond.
    Art Of Noise used the Fairlight pretty extensively. When they performed in concert, JJ Jeczalik and Anne Dudley both had them in their keyboard rigs (actually, JJ I think used just a Fairlight, while Anne's keyboard rig, at least in the one concert I saw on MTV, also included a Memorymoog, a PPG, and a grand piano).

    The problem with samplers of all stripes, is that they all had their own sample libraries available from the get go. So if you walked into a recording studio that had a Fairlight, you had access to the same damn sounds that everyone else who used a Fairlight. And it was the same with the Emulators, the Ensoniq, the Synclavier, etc. That's why nearly every record made in the mid 80's seemingly had that damn orchestra hit sound, because everyone called up the same sample on the Fairlight, and went with it.

    One thing I didn't really notice until years later was listening to records that, say if they had been made in the 70's, would have had acoustic piano or maybe a Fender Rhodes on it. But because the records in question were made in the mid or late 80's, instead of having a nice acoustic or electric piano on it, it's got a digital version, typically the DX-7 "Rhodes" sound. I'm thinking of a lot of R&B and pop type ballads, hell, even stuff like Guiffria's Call To The Heart suffers from that. I love that song, but everytime I hear it, I wish I would slap Gregg in the head and say "the Steinway would have been too conventional, huh?".

    And don't get me started on the "slap bass" sound that turned up on a lot of records during that era. I like the Mini-Moog style synth bass sounds, but not the digital synth slap bass.

    Then there's the goddamn Rockman, a device devised because Tom Scholz got fed up with the difficulties of getting a "consistent" guitar tone through a mic'd guitar amp. It would have been fine if it had been just Scholz using it, but he had to put the damn thing on the market (and I mean literally he had to, because CBS actually cut off his royalties circa 82-83), and everyone bought them up and started using them on their records too! Oy!

    Then there's drum machines. First it was the Roland TR-808, then it was the Linn Drum, the Oberheim DMX, etc. And let's not forget those Simmons drums that were popular with the British bands circa 82-85.

    Oh and there's digital signal processors, which came programmed with all your favorite sounds from your favorite pop records. Trouble trying to get that Phil Collins drum sound? Well not anymore, because Ibanez, Yamaha, and every other effects company put out rack processors that had it progammed in. Likewise for the Trevor Rabin Owner Of A Lonely Heart solo tone (which I remember hearing on a few different records), the Andy Summers stereo chorus guitar tone, etc. And if anyone should think it was just a coincidence, some of these companies actually named the patches after the songs and musicians they were emulating. I think Trevor Rabin said one of them had a preset labeled "Trevor Ravin'", but was apparently aghast when he realized it was basically the pitch transposer setting from Owner.

  4. #54
    Member daven's Avatar
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    Slapp Happy did Casablanca Moon twice. Once with half of Faust and then again with session musicians.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    Slapp Happy did Casablanca Moon twice. Once with half of Faust and then again with session musicians.
    As I understand it, didn't the record company reject the first version of the album?

    Same thing happened with Magma with MDK. They delivered one and the record company rejected. So Vander reworked the piece, 86ed the spoken word intro and added, I think, the brass arrangement.

  6. #56
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    Plus the advent of digital sampling keyboards, the introduction of the Emulator II and Ensoniq Mirage in 1984 put sampling in the hands of musicians who couldn’t dream of affording it before.
    Yup - I remember having the disc with the orchestra hit and arpeggio from Yes "Owner Of A Lonely Heart" -- it was a factory disk

    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    This was fine for bands like the Art of Noise, OMD and Depeche Mode, who actually used sampling in creative and interesting ways. But once Akai introduced their S900 in 1986, extending sample lengths, the horrible precedent of “sample loops taken from other people’s records” began, and went on to become the dominant form of popular song “composition” in the 90s and beyond.
    I think the whole "sample loops" thing was mainly attributed to the E-Mu SP-1200 Sampling Drum Machine(1987). Although it was intended to be a one-shot sample use drum machine, users recognized that it was easier to just sample a drum phrase or music phrase, truncate it, and assign it to one pad....Back then, many 12" singles that DJs used had "Instrumental" B-Sides that MCs and Rappers would Rap over. The SP-1200 "looping" technique offered flexibility to make their music tracks more "original" by sampling and even layering, beats, one-shots, or phrases from one record, mix-n-match from others of same BPM, or even mix in their own phrases from other units. They could set all of these up in "Pattern" Mode and - Presto! - instant Primitive loop-based DAW. Even though it didn't have near the memory of the S900, there were ways to get around this (Such as sampling something transposed/pitched octaves higher, than detuning in the machine)
    Last edited by klothos; 07-20-2013 at 06:20 PM.

  7. #57
    Member hippypants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Hot Rats, Only Money, Absolutely Free, Cruising with Ruben & The Jets were totally redone and parts of a several others were re-recorded by Arthur Barrow (mostly uncredited).

    I would argue this is a much more substantial alteration than doing the lyrics in German, but yeah I see your point.
    Yeah, I got used to the sound off my vinyl to Ruben and the Jets, and didn't like the way he remade the sound for the CD.

  8. #58
    Member progholio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfire Nexus View Post
    David Gilmour is supposedly re-recording "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" to remove the '80s from it.
    interesting.
    so does this mean no Tony Levin?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreb View Post
    Edgar has re-recorded lots of his solo stuff. The two I've heard (Aqua and Epsilon in Malaysia Pale) are very weak in comparison to the wonderful originals.
    He did not start or stop here either. There is Phaedra 2005, Tangram 2008 and I believe he did the same to Hyperborea. Did not like what was done on Phaedra so I haven't picked up the other two. You can go further and pick up the Tangents and Dream Dice box sets and he has remixed, remastered and rerecorded parts of both of them. I know there is a lot of hate directed at the Tangents set but IMHO, parts of it are very good. There I said it, now I'm moving to another state

    I would assume that most if not all of this are due to existing contracts. BTW, former TDer Johannes Schmoelling rerecorded 2 of his albums also, White Out and Zoo of Tranquillity.
    Last edited by Tangram; 07-26-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfire Nexus View Post
    David Gilmour is supposedly re-recording "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" to remove the '80s from it.
    Would love to hear it as DG is quite good at rearranging some of the older material based on what is on his DVDs. However, I am sure he has a great contract with this album and with him not exactly being a workaholic, I don't see this happening.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Art Of Noise used the Fairlight pretty extensively. When they performed in concert, JJ Jeczalik and Anne Dudley both had them in their keyboard rigs (actually, JJ I think used just a Fairlight, while Anne's keyboard rig, at least in the one concert I saw on MTV, also included a Memorymoog, a PPG, and a grand piano).

    The problem with samplers of all stripes, is that they all had their own sample libraries available from the get go. So if you walked into a recording studio that had a Fairlight, you had access to the same damn sounds that everyone else who used a Fairlight. And it was the same with the Emulators, the Ensoniq, the Synclavier, etc. That's why nearly every record made in the mid 80's seemingly had that damn orchestra hit sound, because everyone called up the same sample on the Fairlight, and went with it.

    One thing I didn't really notice until years later was listening to records that, say if they had been made in the 70's, would have had acoustic piano or maybe a Fender Rhodes on it. But because the records in question were made in the mid or late 80's, instead of having a nice acoustic or electric piano on it, it's got a digital version, typically the DX-7 "Rhodes" sound. I'm thinking of a lot of R&B and pop type ballads, hell, even stuff like Guiffria's Call To The Heart suffers from that. I love that song, but everytime I hear it, I wish I would slap Gregg in the head and say "the Steinway would have been too conventional, huh?".

    And don't get me started on the "slap bass" sound that turned up on a lot of records during that era. I like the Mini-Moog style synth bass sounds, but not the digital synth slap bass.

    Then there's the goddamn Rockman, a device devised because Tom Scholz got fed up with the difficulties of getting a "consistent" guitar tone through a mic'd guitar amp. It would have been fine if it had been just Scholz using it, but he had to put the damn thing on the market (and I mean literally he had to, because CBS actually cut off his royalties circa 82-83), and everyone bought them up and started using them on their records too! Oy!

    Then there's drum machines. First it was the Roland TR-808, then it was the Linn Drum, the Oberheim DMX, etc. And let's not forget those Simmons drums that were popular with the British bands circa 82-85.

    Oh and there's digital signal processors, which came programmed with all your favorite sounds from your favorite pop records. Trouble trying to get that Phil Collins drum sound? Well not anymore, because Ibanez, Yamaha, and every other effects company put out rack processors that had it progammed in. Likewise for the Trevor Rabin Owner Of A Lonely Heart solo tone (which I remember hearing on a few different records), the Andy Summers stereo chorus guitar tone, etc. And if anyone should think it was just a coincidence, some of these companies actually named the patches after the songs and musicians they were emulating. I think Trevor Rabin said one of them had a preset labeled "Trevor Ravin'", but was apparently aghast when he realized it was basically the pitch transposer setting from Owner.
    Thank you for saying all that so I did not have to. Now I don't think the 80s were as terrible as some people say, you just had to look through the muck. Kind of like now. I hate the mid 90s through now production habit of dry drums, over-compressed acoustic guitars, bass guitar with the smileyface eq and all rock guitars adopting the thrash metal scooped tone and oversaturated gain. YUCK!

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    As I understand it, didn't the record company reject the first version of the album?
    Polydor rejected the Faust version. It later came out in the early 80s as Slapp Happy or Slapp Happy, then a second release (with a different cover) as Acnalbasac Noom. Virgin then picked them up and agreed to release it...if they re-recorded it from scratch at the Manor with beaucoup de session musicians, which they did. Released as Slapp Happy in 1974, retitled Casablanca Moon for the first CD reissue (with Desperate Straights stuck onto the end). This is the version I own. IMO, the 1973 recording with Faust is far, far superior to the re-recording in every way (but the latter at least includes Desperate Straights, which I adore). I have never actually seen a copy of the Slapp Happy or Slapp Happy release.

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    MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

    "Parece cosa de maligno. Los pianos no estallan por casualidad." --Gabriel Garcia Marquez

    N.P.:“The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet”-Frank Zappa/Freak Out!

  13. #63
    Member daven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    Polydor rejected the Faust version. It later came out in the early 80s as Slapp Happy or Slapp Happy, then a second release (with a different cover) as Acnalbasac Noom. Virgin then picked them up and agreed to release it...if they re-recorded it from scratch at the Manor with beaucoup de session musicians, which they did. Released as Slapp Happy in 1974, retitled Casablanca Moon for the first CD reissue (with Desperate Straights stuck onto the end). This is the version I own. IMO, the 1973 recording with Faust is far, far superior to the re-recording in every way (but the latter at least includes Desperate Straights, which I adore). I have never actually seen a copy of the Slapp Happy or Slapp Happy release.

    -------------
    MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

    "Parece cosa de maligno. Los pianos no estallan por casualidad." --Gabriel Garcia Marquez

    N.P.:“The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet”-Frank Zappa/Freak Out!
    That's the way I understood it too. I have a vinyl copy of Slapp Happy or Slapp Happy on recommended records. The Half of Faust featured are Jean Herve Peron, Werner Diermaier and Gunther Wusthoff. I like both versions, the songwriting still shines through the smoothed out Virgin version.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by jupiter0rjapan View Post
    Thank you for saying all that so I did not have to. Now I don't think the 80s were as terrible as some people say, you just had to look through the muck. Kind of like now. I hate the mid 90s through now production habit of dry drums, over-compressed acoustic guitars, bass guitar with the smileyface eq and all rock guitars adopting the thrash metal scooped tone and oversaturated gain. YUCK!
    Oh yeah, the scooped mids one of the worst things to happen to guitar tone. I remember reading this article on about Smashing Pumpkins in Guitar Player, where Billy Corgan said he wished someone would make a guitar amp that could "distort more than anyone would reasonably want it to", then kvetched about having to "push equipment to the breaking point in order to get a decent tone". Hey, Billy, you want I should give you a list of all the amazing guitarists who never had that problem in the past?!

    The thing I remember about 90's music was all the lousy sounding metal records I heard on college radio. I couldn't tell if it was just that these records were recorded on a low budget, or if it was because the bands all heard ...And Justice For All, and said "Hey, that sounds cool! let's make our record sound like that!"

    I think the success of Pantera also had a lot to do with a lot of that stuff too. Dimebag was one of the first guys I remember using that scooped mids sound, and he played through a cranked transistor amp, so he was never gonna have a good guitar tone.

    Of course, what the record sounded like usually didn't matter, because the bands usually were pretty terrible, rhythmically stiff, too much "Look at how fast we can play" stuff, particularly too much double bass drum, and too many Cookie Monster wannabes masquerading as vocalists. Even if these bands plugged into vintage Marshalls and had someone like Eddie Kramer, Martin Birch or Tom Allom producing them, they would have still sounded terrible.

  15. #65
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Art Zoyd re-recorded their debut, Symphonie Pour le Jour où Brûleront les Cités. (Original 1976, remake 1981.)

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