Musicians "out of tune"..

[N_Singh]

It seems like the Dead had a lot of equipment failure. Keep in mind, they were carrying around recording equipment as well and had pretty sophisticated sound gear, too.

[jkelman]

There was one major drawback to that dual mic system, and you can hear it on every soundboard tape of the Dead from 73-74. You see, the idea is that you've got two microphones wired out of phase. Anything that gets picked up by both mics gets cancelled out. No leakage from the instruments into vocal mics, and no feedback problems. The catch is, the mics have to be placed close enough to each that, although the singer is theoretically only singing into one of them, the second mic is actually also picking up the voice. The result is that thin vocal sound you hear on those live tapes from the above stated era. If you're recording on multi-track you can always add a little bottom end via EQ (or simply overdub a new vocal track after the fact), but on a two track tape, not so much.

That's probably why the Dead stopped using that system after 74.

True, but at the time, a fair trade off.....especially in '74 with the wall of sound. After that perhaps, not so hard to get the vocals without thousands of watts of everything else bleeding in. I get your point, but my point was simly that, at that time, the Dead were bleeding edge technologically. The overall quality of their live recordings ( even with a little thin vocals) dating back to the late '60s pretty much supports that. Who else has this much live music with this relatively high quality dating that far back?

Ya gotta love 'em for being committed to the band, the music and the sound in a way few others were....or even are....

Cheers!
John

[Wisdomview]

That G string can be one pesky SOB.

[trurl]

Yeah, God knows I really have nothing good to say about the Dead musically, but their commitment to technology was pretty much above reproach. Some things worked, some not so much, but they always tried to provide the best sonic experience possible.

[N_Singh]

That G string can be one pesky SOB.

Wind that shit up. Get some TI (Tomastic-Infeld) Roundwound bebops while your at it.

[trurl]

That G string can be one pesky SOB.

Not anymore!!!

[GuitarGeek]

It seems like the Dead had a lot of equipment failure. Keep in mind, they were carrying around recording equipment as well and had pretty sophisticated sound gear, too.

You make it sound like they were carrying a full blown multi-track remote studio with them, which most of the time, wasn't the case. Most of the live recordings of the Dead from the 60's and 70's were done on a two track Nagra or Studer. During the Owsley era, he was doing the recording himself, but when Kidd Candalario and Betty Cantor took over recording duties, they were running their own board mixes, independent of what was going out to the PA.

I think the problems they tended to have had more to do with things like PA, microphones and amps. There's a few shows from the 70's where Weir informs the audience that "We're having trouble with the piano", which I suppose means either the piano had gone out of tune or Keith had managed to break some strings, or maybe the microphones they were using on the piano went down.

Later on, as the guitar and keyboard rigs became more complicated, I think more and more stuff tended to happen, especially at the start of the show. You plug your guitar into a refrigerator sized effects/amp/synth rack, and you're gonna increase your odds of having a breakdown who knows how many times. I've got video footage from the Summer Solstice 89 pay per view where Bob almost kicks over his rack because of the occasional bursts of crackling noises that were bursting forth at the start of the show.

[GuitarGeek]

Well, these guys were just jamming, like any other band. They just happened to be on stage with people watching. They certainly never felt like any clock was running.

Oh no shit. That was another thing I remember about that pay per view concert, the encore got cut off because apparently they had over shot their allotted time slot or whatever, and the pay per view service just HAD to cut to whatever stupid movie was scheduled to follow the concert.

But this isn't even jamming, it feels more like, as I said, just plain old futzing around, like they were waiting for someone to come back from the port-a-johnny before they could continue on with the next song.

Come to think of it, there are some shows from the late 60's, where do seem to be some weird technical problems onstage. Sometimes you hear Weir or Phil says "Hey, Bear! We've got no monitors, what the hell?!" or whatever. There's one show (I think one of the Fillmore West shows from February/March 69) where apparently the audience is getting restless and Jerry has to calm them down, saying something like "Oh, I invite you to spend a half hour up here, and you can see what it's like...it's absolutely beyond the pale".

[Watanabe]

If you want to talk about San Francisco bands, Jefferson Airplane was often way out. And they weren't as collectively strong a group of players, so couldn't get away with it.

Yeah the airplane were often dodgy live, though i wouldn't say they weren't as strong as players.Cassidy, Kaukonen and Dryden were as tight a unit as Garcia, Lesh and Hart as far as the playing, if not always the tuning\overall sound went.Bill Kreutzmann, Weir, Kantner and the rest were just vestigial organs.

[GuitarGeek]

Yeah the airplane were often dodgy live, though i wouldn't say they weren't as strong as players.Cassidy, Kaukonen and Dryden were as tight a unit as Garcia, Lesh and Hart as far as the playing, if not always the tuning\overall sound went.Bill Kreutzmann, Weir, Kantner and the rest were just vestigial organs.

Dude, I think you got your Dead drummers mixed up. If there was anyone up on that drum riser who was dead weight, it was Mickey. Sometimes the two of them could up with some cool stuff, but there were also lot of times where Mickey just seemed to the general state of clutter in the band's latter day sound. One of the things I like about the 72-74 era sound is that there's more room in the band's sound in general, and in particular, in the percussion department. I always thought Mickey would have been more useful in that band as a "percussionist" as opposed to being a "second drummer", if you get my meaning.

[PeterG]

Always wondered why he didn't retake it.

Because it sounds fantastic!

[davis]

Does "Them Bones" count for this or is more like in tune but dissonant?

[ronmac]

But this isn't even jamming, it feels more like, as I said, just plain old futzing around, like they were waiting for someone to come back from the port-a-johnny before they could continue on with the next song.

I wasn't referring to the between-songs futzing. My point was that, their performances were essentially jamming, so in between songs they handled it like any other jam not on a stage. They just played when they were ready and felt no need to hurry to the next song or follow any particular clock.

[Cuz]

One of the things I like about the 72-74 era sound is that there's more room in the band's sound in general, and in particular, in the percussion department. I always thought Mickey would have been more useful in that band as a "percussionist" as opposed to being a "second drummer", if you get my meaning.

Couldn't agree more.

[Wisdomview]

What is that Peavey? Auto-tune for guitar............blaaaaahhhhhhhhh

[trurl]

What is that Peavey? Auto-tune for guitar............blaaaaahhhhhhhhh

Yep... sneer all you want but for studio work that thing is a godsend. No more intonation problems for 85% of all guitar players who walk in the door... f**k dah G string!! And the B string too.

[Wisdomview]

Maybe, but all the records I own have non-sterile sounding guitars and I like it!

Guitar should be a little rough. If I want perfect, I'll use midi.

[trurl]

Maybe, but all the records I own have non-sterile sounding guitars and I like it!

Guitar should be a little rough. If I want perfect, I'll use midi.

Those records are (generally) made by pros spending a lot of time and energy. The reality is that most guitarists that come in can not or will not afford a quality instrument that is set up. They aren't a "little rough", or "have character". They are out of f*ing intonation, or the guy can't fret worth a crap and play in tune. You record your stuff with as much "character" as you want but I'll use the guitar that matches the intonation of the keyboards... I have a DVD by a top LA session guitarist... I think it's the Alan Parsons DVD... where he talks about retuning his guitar to get the intonation right for certain chords in a song. A top guy, with top gear. Guitars are tools of Satan.

[Wisdomview]

Setups are pretty easy to do, but I know what you mean.
Hail Satan.

[Watanabe]

Dude, I think you got your Dead drummers mixed up. If there was anyone up on that drum riser who was dead weight, it was Mickey. Sometimes the two of them could up with some cool stuff, but there were also lot of times where Mickey just seemed to the general state of clutter in the band's latter day sound. One of the things I like about the 72-74 era sound is that there's more room in the band's sound in general, and in particular, in the percussion department. I always thought Mickey would have been more useful in that band as a "percussionist" as opposed to being a "second drummer", if you get my meaning.

I've never rated Kreutzmann, imo he's a very ponderous player.To be honest though almost all the dead stuff i enjoy ends with Live\dead and it was Hart playing the tough stuff and bringing the jazz influenced patterns to the band in those days.

[Mikhael]

I have that problem a LOT around here (Austin, TX USA). Playing outdoors, with afternoon temps near 100F, constantly varying humidity, then playing while the sun sets (and all that temp/humidity crap changes), it drives my guitars nuts. I like it much better playing with my original rock band, since with that band I use guitars with locking Floyds on them. MUCH more stable, for whatever reason.

[GuitarGeek]

What is that Peavey? Auto-tune for guitar............blaaaaahhhhhhhhh

Given the fact that a lot of Hartley's customers are Southern rockers and country performers (or at least it seems that way sometimes), maybe he had requests for something that wouldn't require you to sober up before you could tune the guitar.

[trurl]

Given the fact that a lot of Hartley's customers are Southern rockers and country performers (or at least it seems that way sometimes), maybe he had requests for something that wouldn't require you to sober up before you could tune the guitar.

It's funny 'cause it's true

[Gorillclub]

This was a loose jam session, it's not like Greg Lake suddenly turning around to Keith Emerson and saying "Tonight, I want to play Tarkus in a different key" or whatever.

LOL !!!!! thanks !!!

[No Pride]

That G string can be one pesky SOB.

Wind that shit up. Get some TI (Tomastic-Infeld) Roundwound bebops while your at it.

That's fine if you're a bigbox archtop traditional jazz player who has no interest in bending notes further than a half step. If you're not, forget about it!

What is that Peavey? Auto-tune for guitar............blaaaaahhhhhhhhh

Yep... sneer all you want but for studio work that thing is a godsend. No more intonation problems for 85% of all guitar players who walk in the door... f**k dah G string!! And the B string too.

My knee-jerk reaction is "are you kidding me?!" But I'm not going to judge before actually trying the thing. I'll be skeptical until I do, but I've been surprised a few times in my life; it could happen again.