Lake with Asia...

[iguana]

After the Greg Lake replacement didn’t work out, Wetton was brought back in about 6 months later. By this time, I presume all parties involved realized the mistake they had made.

in sacrificing steve howe though. at that point they just couldn’t get along. they quickly became mates upon forming the band – one needs to remember that it was howe and wetton who basically started ASiA as a duo. downes was the last one to join and of course he and wetton went off like a creative rocket and thus ‘hijacking’ the original writing team. they finally made up on the reunion of the original band in 2012 and it is said that howe’s recent departure was nothing but amicable.

with ASiA it was definitely a case of too much too soon. if only they have had an extra year to get “alpha” done....

[Scott Bails]

if only they have had an extra year to get “alpha” done....

I don't agree with this - a year?!!!

[dregsfan]

Alpha was hurt by 1) Howe's minimal involvement due to the birth of his 4th child and more importantly 2) Geffen pushing for more songs from the Wetton-Downes writing team. If you look at the credits for the debut, there's a nice blend of W/D, W/H and W/D/H credits. Alpha suffers from too much W/D. Well, that and too much reverb and not enough bass. I remember Mike Stone's comment that he mixed the album to be heard "over a car's AM radio."(!)

[GuitarGeek]

I remember Mike Stone's comment that he mixed the album to be heard "over a car's AM radio."(!)

That was common practice in the music business for decades. A lot of people mixed their records so it would sound good on the radio. I read once that whenever Les Paul finished recording something, he'd play it through a small radio transmitter he had built, and drive around the block and listen to hear how it would sound in the car.

I remember when Frank Zappa was on the cover of Guitar Player in 83, he was asked if he ever plays his music back in mono. Frank said "No, why would I do that?". The interviewer responded that it was common for musicians to do that to see what the music would sound like on AM radio, and Frank said "But nobody's going to play music on AM radio!".

[ThomasKDye]

I don't agree with this - a year?!!!

Well, at least six months to form a larger pool of material. While I'm okay with most of Alpha (I'm actually quite fond of the thing) the glut of W/D material makes it sound much more "samey" than the debut. To be honest, the enterprise was pretty much a Brian Lane conglomeration which worked mostly harmoniously for the first album, and was relatively unsustainable at the time due to the usual plague of rock star egos. But as far as I'm concerned, the music was fine and I'm glad they got their s**t together 22 years later to do more.

[happytheman]

Well, at least six months to form a larger pool of material. While I'm okay with most of Alpha (I'm actually quite fond of the thing) the glut of W/D material makes it sound much more "samey" than the debut. To be honest, the enterprise was pretty much a Brian Lane conglomeration which worked mostly harmoniously for the first album, and was relatively unsustainable at the time due to the usual plague of rock star egos. But as far as I'm concerned, the music was fine and I'm glad they got their s**t together 22 years later to do more.

Lot's of stories out there regarding Asia eh? At some point I remember hearing an interview with Asia and Howe wasn't present due to newborn as I recall.. At any rate they discussed how "this would work"... how they had all been through the "group syndrome" before and all the ego stuff was off the table and in the past.. Alpha material came about pretty quickly due to the success of the first album and tour.. I want to say the CD I have from Asia in Asia (not sure it's legit...) has the missing Time Again... I'll listen to it tomorrow just to make sure.. And supposedly Howe is on some of the Astra material (or at least there are demos with his guitar included).. Not sure if it would have helped all that much.. Astra suffers from the same disease Alpha does.. the sameness of Downes / Wetton "formula rock n roll"..

[Scott Bails]

Well, at least six months to form a larger pool of material. While I'm okay with most of Alpha (I'm actually quite fond of the thing) the glut of W/D material makes it sound much more "samey" than the debut. To be honest, the enterprise was pretty much a Brian Lane conglomeration which worked mostly harmoniously for the first album, and was relatively unsustainable at the time due to the usual plague of rock star egos. But as far as I'm concerned, the music was fine and I'm glad they got their s**t together 22 years later to do more.

Totally agree with you, on every point.

And supposedly Howe is on some of the Astra material (or at least there are demos with his guitar included).. Not sure if it would have helped all that much.. Astra suffers from the same disease Alpha does.. the sameness of Downes / Wetton "formula rock n roll"..

Agree here too - plus those awful electronic drums.

[jrw]

Alpha was hurt by 1) Howe's minimal involvement due to the birth of his 4th child and more importantly 2) Geffen pushing for more songs from the Wetton-Downes writing team. If you look at the credits for the debut, there's a nice blend of W/D, W/H and W/D/H credits. Alpha suffers from too much W/D. Well, that and too much reverb and not enough bass. I remember Mike Stone's comment that he mixed the album to be heard "over a car's AM radio."(!)

First of all, this is my first post ever on PE. I have lurked for years.

I am trying to respond to multiple posts in this thread.

I have been a huge fan since I heard about the formation of Asia in 1981, having been a big Yes fan and liking KC, ELP, and UK. I was fortunate enough to see them in Dallas in 1982 (albeit from the rafters).

Concerning Asia in Asia-Time Again was broadcast over the radio and live on MTV. I did not see it live-I heard it on the radio and watched a taped performance. I bought the video, on Beta, when it came out the next spring or summer. Time Again was on the box but not the recording. I still have the video, but no way to play it.

I absorbed all of the information concerning Asia that I could from various sources-FM radio, MTV, music magazines, etc.

There were plans at one time for them to continue with Lake. In fact there was, at that time, late 1983, a 900 phone number that would had some DJ that would give Rock updates, tour dates, etc. I would call for info. The recording had some tentative Asia dates for early 1984 (my memory is Februrary) with Greg Lake. There were only a handful of dates, but one was in Dallas, and I was hoping to go. I believe this was on the "hotline" a little before Asia in Asia which was in early December. The DJ jokingly called the band "Asia, Lake, and Palmer."

Regarding Alpha-I recall reading somewhere that the reason Alpha only contained Wetton/Downes compositions is that the powers that be at Geffen thought Wetton/Downes could be a prolific song writing team like Lennon/McCartney-no kidding-given that "the hits" from the debut were their songs. Therefore, they wanted them to write the songs for Alpha. I seemed to recall Howe saying he had advanced some ideas for Alpha, but all we have heard is "Lying to Yourself." Also, it is well known that Wetton and producer Mike Stone were drinking quite a bit at the time. Stone eventually died from some alcohol related illness I believe in 2002. I am just inferring that may have had something to do with the production/mix. I frequent Wetton's guest book on his page, and he has suggested Alpha needs remixing and hopes it happens-as do I.

Also, there is a recent interview with Howe where he states he has some private reasons for leaving Asia this year that he will keep to himself. Not sure what to make of that. Here is the link.

http://www.progrockmag.com/news/stev...to-leave-asia/

While I am curious to see what happens with the new guitarist, Sam Coulsen, I am afraid Asia will suffer as a result. Asia was not as good with Lake, Astra suffered without Howe, the John Payne years were a totally different band. Wetton announced on his web site that they will doing an acoustic set on their European dates this summer. Maybe that is easier to rehearse. I don't know.

I am sure their concert attendance will suffer without Howe. IMHO, Asia only works with the original four. I am sure I'll give Valkyrie a chance though.

I was able to see them in 1982 and given what happened the next year, I never thought I'd get to see the original four again, as I did in 09, 10, and 12.

Sorry if my first post rambled.

[jrw]

Lot's of stories out there regarding Asia eh? At some point I remember hearing an interview with Asia and Howe wasn't present due to newborn as I recall.. At any rate they discussed how "this would work"... how they had all been through the "group syndrome" before and all the ego stuff was off the table and in the past.. Alpha material came about pretty quickly due to the success of the first album and tour.. I want to say the CD I have from Asia in Asia (not sure it's legit...) has the missing Time Again... I'll listen to it tomorrow just to make sure.. And supposedly Howe is on some of the Astra material (or at least there are demos with his guitar included).. Not sure if it would have helped all that much.. Astra suffers from the same disease Alpha does.. the sameness of Downes / Wetton "formula rock n roll"..

Prior to the release of Astra, I heard or read that Howe was one of several guitarists on Astra. I believe Wetton has said that is not the case. I am not sure what the truth is, but Howe did say he was at the studio some during the recording of Astra.

[GuitarGeek]

Prior to the release of Astra, I heard or read that Howe was one of several guitarists on Astra. I believe Wetton has said that is not the case. I am not sure what the truth is, but Howe did say he was at the studio some during the recording of Astra.

I think Howe said that there was talk of him playing on Astra, as a "special guest" or whatever, but for whatever reason (which I've forgotten) it didn't pan out.

[iguana]

I don't agree with this - a year?!!!

yes, that would have added up to a two-year gap between the debut and “alpha”. i don’t think that this would have harmed the band’s then momentum at all.

[happytheman]

yes, that would have added up to a two-year gap between the debut and “alpha”. i don’t think that this would have harmed the band’s then momentum at all.

Hmmm.... think of what the delay between 90125 and Big Generator did for Yes... they were riding the wave of a life time and other than the hardcore fans... only a percentage got "back on the train" with BG. Big Generator could have been part of that wave.. but alas... egos etc. meant they had to recreate the momentum.. and in those days of MTV exposure etc.. they just never regained the momentum..

[iguana]

Hmmm.... think of what the delay between 90125 and Big Generator did for Yes... they were riding the wave of a life time and other than the hardcore fans... Big Generator could have been part of that wave.. but alas... egos etc. meant they had to recreate the momentum.. and in those days of MTV exposure etc.. they just never regained the momentum..

yes, but those were four years (83-87), weren’t they? indeed, YES were back to dinosaur status by this sooner than they would have liked. especially squire has mentioned many times that it should have been released at least a year earlier. i recall that huge resurgence of classic rock bands in 1987, but YES did not seem to manage to ride the wave of that particular year, with floyd’s “momentary lapse”, fleetwood mac’s “tangoin the night” and rush’s “hold your fire” pretty much running away with the cup beforehand.

two years gap were pretty much industry standard in the 1980s and the first half of the 1990s. by the well-familiar shifts within the market and an emphasis on touring as a non-copyable commodity that was gradually extended. unless you were “indie” or your last name was morse or wilson...

in hindsight it was ludicrous to squeeze another album out of them within a year’s duration. that said, all that “alpha” bashing is a little unjustified. there are lots of good songs on there. “the heat goes on” and “open your eyes” have remained concert staples throughout and steve howe’s guitar finesse is in there, if one is prepared to listen closely, especially in the underrated “my own time”, a lost ASiA classic.

[happytheman]

yes, but those were four years (83-87), weren’t they? indeed, YES were back to dinosaur status by this sooner than they would have liked. especially squire has mentioned many times that it should have been released at least a year earlier. i recall that huge resurgence of classic rock bands in 1987, but YES did not seem to manage to ride the wave of that particular year, with floyd’s “momentary lapse”, fleetwood mac’s “tangoin the night” and rush’s “hold your fire” pretty much running away with the cup beforehand.

two years gap were pretty much industry standard in the 1980s and the first half of the 1990s. by the well-familiar shifts within the market and an emphasis on touring as a non-copyable commodity that was gradually extended. unless you were “indie” or your last name was morse or wilson...

in hindsight it was ludicrous to squeeze another album out of them within a year’s duration. that said, all that “alpha” bashing is a little unjustified. there are lots of good songs on there. “the heat goes on” and “open your eyes” have remained concert staples throughout and steve howe’s guitar finesse is in there, if one is prepared to listen closely, especially in the underrated “my own time”, a lost ASiA classic.

Trust me Alpha got plenty of "air time" in my car... I had an hour commute in those days to work and that was plugged in every night coming home after working late.. Agree there are some nice tunes.. but don't know if I agree on the amount of time between albums bit.. plenty of groups came out of the shoot with more material than was needed for their first release thus a second release could be "culled" from the "leftovers".... think of UK.. several songs that ended up on their second release were well rehearsed and even a part of the set list on their debut tour so... but the stories regarding management pushing them to "get another out you owe it too the fans".. is not hard to swallow.. Corporate rock will forever be aligned with the 80's...

[Scott Bails]

Sorry if my first post rambled.

Not at all, man. Some good stuff in there. Welcome aboard!

Prior to the release of Astra, I heard or read that Howe was one of several guitarists on Astra. I believe Wetton has said that is not the case. I am not sure what the truth is, but Howe did say he was at the studio some during the recording of Astra.

I've never heard that Howe participated in anything related to Astra. Interesting....

all that “alpha” bashing is a little unjustified. there are lots of good songs on there. “the heat goes on” and “open your eyes” have remained concert staples throughout and steve howe’s guitar finesse is in there, if one is prepared to listen closely, especially in the underrated “my own time”, a lost ASiA classic.

Yeah, it's a "spottier" album than the debut, and Howe's influence is definitely missing, but there are still some great songs, as you point out.

[Gerardo]

Prior to the release of Astra, I heard or read that Howe was one of several guitarists on Astra. I believe Wetton has said that is not the case. I am not sure what the truth is, but Howe did say he was at the studio some during the recording of Astra.

What I've read is that Howe has claimed that, after he had left the band, he was approached by ASIA's management to perform on 'ASTRA' but, after listening to songs, he decided not to do it. Wetton has denied this saying that Howe didn't refused to play on 'ASTRA' and that the real reason he isn't on the record is because Wetton didn't want to work with Howe again.

[Gerardo]

Regarding 'ALPHA', I agree with most of what's been said regarding the production, the Wetton-Downes writing team, etc, but to me the difference between 'ALPHA' and the debut album is that in the debut, *all* four players shine, especially Steve Howe's guitar work, but in 'ALPHA' Howe and Palmer are relegated as session musicians, probably because of the Wetton-Downes writing team taking over. Also, as has been stated before, the debut has a more collaborative effort in the songwriting with Howe involved in 4 or 5 songs, while his songwriting is missing in action in 'ALPHA'. Personally, I think "Lying To Yourself" should have been included on the album.

[Scott Bails]

Wetton has denied this saying that Howe didn't refused to play on 'ASTRA' and that the real reason he isn't on the record is because Wetton didn't want to work with Howe again.

This is what I've always heard.

Regarding 'ALPHA', I agree with most of what's been said regarding the production, the Wetton-Downes writing team, etc, but to me the difference between 'ALPHA' and the debut album is that in the debut, *all* four players shine, especially Steve Howe's guitar work, but in 'ALPHA' Howe and Palmer are relegated as session musicians, probably because of the Wetton-Downes writing team taking over. Also, as has been stated before, the debut has a more collaborative effort in the songwriting with Howe involved in 4 or 5 songs, while his songwriting is missing in action in 'ALPHA'. Personally, I think "Lying To Yourself" should have been included on the album.

Could not agree more. And I've felt this way about every album by the original members. Howe and Palmer just aren't featured as much as they are on the debut. The debut has such a balance where every instrument seems to be featured, and this is severely lacking in other efforts.

[Akustika]

Prior to the release of Astra, I heard or read that Howe was one of several guitarists on Astra. I believe Wetton has said that is not the case. I am not sure what the truth is, but Howe did say he was at the studio some during the recording of Astra.

Did anyone attend the Wetton Fan convention in 2002? During the ‘meet & greet’ session they blasted rare Asia recordings over the sound system. One of them was a demo/rehearsal (?) version of After The War, I’m not positive, but I think Howe was the guitarist on there.

[NorthNY Mark]

While I am curious to see what happens with the new guitarist, Sam Coulsen, I am afraid Asia will suffer as a result. Asia was not as good with Lake, Astra suffered without Howe, the John Payne years were a totally different band. Wetton announced on his web site that they will doing an acoustic set on their European dates this summer. Maybe that is easier to rehearse. I don't know.

I am sure their concert attendance will suffer without Howe. IMHO, Asia only works with the original four. I am sure I'll give Valkyrie a chance though.

I was able to see them in 1982 and given what happened the next year, I never thought I'd get to see the original four again, as I did in 09, 10, and 12.

Sorry if my first post rambled.

Welcome aboard! I agree completely with the section of your post quoted above. I'll give the new album a try, but am skeptical that Asia will work without all four original members, as IMHO it never has sounded right in any of the other formations they tried over the years. Unlike you, I never got to see the band when they first formed, so the reunion was quite a treat while it lasted. That being said, I'm not too surprised that Howe has opted out--it sounds like he mainly just felt hemmed in by two full-time bands, and who can blame him?

By the way, I am one of the rare fans who prefers Alpha to the debut. I like the churchy/baroque pop feel of many of the tracks, the sheer beauty of "Midnight Sun," and the proggy expansiveness of "Open Your Eyes."

[jrw]

One other thing on the production of Alpha-both Midnight Sun and The Smile Has Left Your Eyes were performed on the first tour. I had a boot of that tour prior to Alpha's release. When I played Midnight Sun from Alpha, my reaction was they have ruined this song.

If you haven't heard it, find Midnight Sun from the first tour on YouTube. There is also an entire concert from that tour on soundcloud.

[bRETT]

Prior to the release of Astra, I heard or read that Howe was one of several guitarists on Astra. I believe Wetton has said that is not the case. I am not sure what the truth is, but Howe did say he was at the studio some during the recording of Astra.

Again per Gallant's book, Astra was begun with all four original members, some recording was done before the Wetton/Howe tensions brewed up. Does not seem that any of it made the album though-- sessions for Astra dragged on a long time. It was as overworked as it sounds.

[NorthNY Mark]

What I've read is that Howe has claimed that, after he had left the band, he was approached by ASIA's management to perform on 'ASTRA' but, after listening to songs, he decided not to do it. Wetton has denied this saying that Howe didn't refused to play on 'ASTRA' and that the real reason he isn't on the record is because Wetton didn't want to work with Howe again.

My understanding is that when Wetton was brought back into the fold, it was initially assumed that the original four would record Astra (then to be called Arcadia). They rehearsed (and may have recorded some demos) for a brief time, during which the Wetton-Howe animosity surfaced, and Wetton says he made a "him or me" ultimatum that resulted in Howe's departure. Wetton has expressed regret for what he now acknowledges was petty behavior on his part at the time.

EDIT--looks like bRETT beat me to it while I was typing!

[Scott Bails]

Yeah - that's what I had always heard.

[Gerardo]

My understanding is that when Wetton was brought back into the fold, it was initially assumed that the original four would record Astra (then to be called Arcadia). They rehearsed (and may have recorded some demos) for a brief time, during which the Wetton-Howe animosity surfaced, and Wetton says he made a "him or me" ultimatum that resulted in Howe's departure. Wetton has expressed regret for what he now acknowledges was petty behavior on his part at the time.

EDIT--looks like bRETT beat me to it while I was typing!

All of what you wrote here is true. What I was referring to is that *after* Steve had left the band, he was approached by ASIA's management because, as has been stated, the sessions for the 'ASTRA' album were dragging and there was a suggestion of bringing Steve back to play guitar, but not as a full member of the band, sort of as a session player to record the guitar parts. In what I read (and I wish I could provide a link to where I read it) there was a suggestion that Steve accepted initially because of the money he was offered, but when he came and heard the songs, he decided not to do it. In that same article, Wetton's recollection is different and said that Steve didn't refuse to play and that what happened essentially was that he (Wetton) vetoed the idea of bringing Steve back.