Well, then, you've not heard Grace for Drowning or The Raven That Refused to Sing, which is filled with mixed meters and tremendous playing...so perhaps you should, before you render an opinion?Originally Posted by sonic
Well, then, you've not heard Grace for Drowning or The Raven That Refused to Sing, which is filled with mixed meters and tremendous playing...so perhaps you should, before you render an opinion?
Yes.
Again, if you read my interview, you'll see he is not putting himself on Zappa's level. Here's what he said:
"So," Wilson continues, "while not putting myself on that level, in my own way I'm offering these guys a chance to show off what they can do within the context of what is, hopefully, good musical material."Hopefully this settles things; any suggestions on hubris on Wilson's part are fabrications of misunderstanding or misinterpretation. Wilson doesn't think he's as good as Zappa, but thinks of him as a role model. And one thing is for sure: he could sure pick a lot worse role model!"I have always dreamed of being in this position. Zappa was so good at it; his players were always much better musicians than he was. He had the ideas, and he wrote the music, but he got other people to play it who were better at playing it than he was. At the same time, it was kind of mutually beneficial; they all enjoyed playing music by the guy who had the ideas—those fantastic ideas.
"What this has done is make me raise my game as a writer," Wilson concludes. "Because the stuff I've written for this band to play—I mean, it's not complicated, but it's more complex than anything I've written before—I think that to be able to write for musicians of this caliber does make me start to think, really, at the very peak of what I'm capable of imagining and writing. That's been great to challenge myself. What can I write that Marco will actually find difficult to play? Not a lot. I'm not trying to suggest I'm writing difficult stuff just for the sake of it, because I really loathe that whole concept of complexity for its own sake. But at the same time, I like stuff that works on both levels. I like good songs that also have a level of intricacy, which means you can appreciate them from a musical perspective as well. And that's something I'm definitely doing for this record that I've never been able to do before. I mean, Gavin [Harrison, Porcupine Tree drummer] is extraordinary, but myself, Richard [Barbieri, keyboardist] and Colin [Edwin, bassist], are all more restricted in terms of our musical technique, so we have to limit ourselves in terms of what we can play and what we can pull off in a live context. With this band, it's a whole different ballgame, and I'm loving that."
"Is Steven Wilson becoming Uncle Frank... ?"
Essentially, no - it's a spurious comparison. The only thing they have in common is the wherewithal and confidence to hire good players.
The OP says "In his latest DVD, he starting to conduct like Frank did". You call that conducting? To me it seems more like a dorky version of the sort of thing Ian Anderson does. I don't think he's giving any signals to the band like FZ was wont to do.
I believe it to be his most progressive solo album.
OK. I've listened to several tracks now on youtube and enjoying it compared to Porcupine Tree. Still, as good as it is, I've heard nothing that even begins to approach Zappa's compositional genius. Despite there being a few odd time signatures the instrumental work is mostly very simple — no complex polyrhythms and mind-boggling instrumental passages and improvisations. No wild swings from one style of music to another.
Really? If anything, it's the guitars that are plodding in PT. Gavin Harrison is known for his polyrhythmic and technical prowess and also his metric modulation inventions (he's written books about it). GH is the star of PT in terms of instrumental virtuosity. If GH is plodding in your estimation, which drummers do you feel are pushing the polyrhythmic envelope more than GH?
John, seriously; I was speaking from first principle opinion - I had no idea whatsoever that SW himself had even touched upon such a comparison. So I wasn't really "getting it wrong" either. Not this time, anyway.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Cool; thanks for clarifying. My issue was that the thread (not just you) was starting to sound like SW was comparing himself to Zappa in a hubris kinda way. I figured I'd clear it up with his own words, as my experience with him, before, during and since this interview is that he's a pretty humble guy. Confident in what he's doing, yes, but not one to suggest he's in the same realm, musically, as folks like Zappa.John, seriously; I was speaking from first principle opinion - I had no idea whatsoever that SW himself had even touched upon such a comparison. So I wasn't really "getting it wrong" either. Not this time, anyway.
Best!
John
And, as I have already pointed out, ad nauseum, if anyone is comparing Wilson's music to Zappa's, it ain't Wilson.
Post an example. In every track I've sampled from PT the drums are 90% whacking on the beat. I don't hear any Billy Cobham, Chad Wackerman or Bozzio in PT.
When I first read the title of this thread I thought that at best it would invite some unfair comparisons and at worst SW would be soundly beaten with a Zappa-shaped stick! Whatever the intentions of the OP and despite Mr Kelman's best attempts to clarify SW's own views on FZ's influences on him, it seems discussion has, at times, become a pissing contest.
"One should never magnify the harsh light of reality with the mirror of prose onto the delicate wings of fantasy's butterfly"
Thumpermonkey - How I Wrote The French Lieutenant's Woman
"I'm content to listen to what I like and keep my useless negative opinions about what I don't like to myself -- because no one is interested in hearing those anyway, and it contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation."
aith01
Love SW, but he ain't no FZ. He hasn't changed the face of music as we know it.
There are many examples, Anesthetize probably being the best example. Don't forget much of Frank's music was "plodding 4/4."
as are all pages on Wiki
Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?
Well he has for me. Isn't it all a personal thing anyway? I love some Zappa but for ME, he hasn't changed the face of music.
I'll bite. The last 1/3 of 'What Happens Now" off Nil Reoccurring.
Last edited by pete100ca; 05-11-2013 at 02:13 AM.
OK. I'll check those out.
I like 90% of Wilson's music. Zappa's percentage is maybe 20. So I really hope that Wilson doesn't become too much like Zappa!
Is SW's dad'd sister becoming the new Aunt Jemina?!
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Wilson is basically a very focused, meticulous and prolific audio engineer - in a way, a new and turbo-charged version of Alan Parsons.
Similarly to Parsons, Wilson dabbles in actually composing and playing music as well, but here the similarity ends. You see, Parsons appears to be a perfectly normal, jolly human - he lives in sunny California, with a wife and kids, and has this unmistakable aura of an accomplished and content individual about his burly self. Wilson
is a scrawny guy who wears black, sleeps on a tour bus and looks either aloof, or vexed - nuff said.
Wilson's musical passion and achievements seem to be driven largely by his grotesquely oversize, anxiety-ridden, brooding ego. The music feels rather different when it's driven by the pure talent that seeks ways of expressing itself.
Most of the stuff that Wilson ever wrote is very weak. This is probably true for every musician out there. You don't expect Usain Bolt to break world records every time he jogs with his dog. You didn't expect a new scientific discovery to be pronounced every time Albert Einstein chatted with a waiter in a restaurant.
But Wilson seems to insist that even his weakest, most pointless, least satisfying music (and non-music) be produced, packaged in fanciful ways, presented as a work of a genius and sold as an object of desire to the devoted fans.
You know when you see a true musical genius - they strike early and shine like a bolid. The Beatles, Yes, King Crimson, Chick Corea, Jaco Pastorius, Frank Zappa, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix had already changed the course of music by the time they were barely 30. Up to the age of 35, Wilson was still plagiarizing the 70s psychedelic stuff, and hadn't quite figured out how to sing, play the guitar or weave a consistent music texture.
Then, Porcupine Tree was reinforced with Harrison (which made a bid difference), and saw Wilson plagiarize and recycle King Crimson enough to earn him street cred and sales with the heavy prog fan base.
I am not even talking about Wilson's "side projects" - I'd rather take Mariah Carey or Andrews Sisters on a trip to Mars than Storm Corrosion or Blackfield
As for Wilson's newest solo creations, Insurgentes and Grace for me are a waste of space, while The Raven is a masterfully repackaged compilation of the 1970s progressive and kraut rock achievements. Nothing new, nothing progressive, really. No Uncle Frank, or Uncle Bob, or Uncle Phil, or Uncle Jon, or Uncle Ian.
I'd rather take Mariah Carey on a trip to Mars as well, wink, wink, nudge nudge, say no moreI'd rather take Mariah Carey or Andrews Sisters on a trip to Mars than Storm Corrosion or Blackfield
Wilson is refreshingly earnest, honest, and sincere. Fundamentally, he seems GENUINELY passionate about music, and that passion drives him forward. And this is a bad thing because ____________________????
I do not compare him to Zappa at all. Thankfully, he seems to also have none of Zappa's nasty, ugly, cynicalness as well. No stupid, offensive, misogynistic lyrics, either.
I like 90% of Wilson's music. Zappa's percentage is maybe 20. So I really hope that Wilson doesn't become too much like Zappa!Agreed!
His lyrics are insightful -- for me, he channels the collective desire to understand our fragile existence here on this Earth. He reminds me of Thoreau in his desire to live deliberately. "We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake."
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