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Thread: The old Progressive Ears top 100 Proto-prog list

  1. #51
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Exactly. Sure, it's an imperfect marker but you have to start somewhere and it's probably the best in terms of an overall consensus between musicians and fans.

    And IMHO any proto prog list that doesn't include The Nice, The Moodies or The Who is... incomplete.
    Well, except for Moodies (4 of their classic 7 are pre-70's), given that most of The Who's recorded out put were post-60's (unlike The Nice), I'm not convinced they are proto-prog (despite the band being in PA's PP section) >> their proggier works (Tommuy and Quadrophenia) were 70's works (barely for the former, though)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  2. #52
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Okay, this again...

    The important thing to remember when this or any discussion like it comes up is to THROW AWAY THE LITERAL MEANING. All of these definitions are imperfect, and what was intended is often lost after years of debating and arguing about it. This is as much about "style" and "sound" than it is about any literal meaning. As such, you just can't throw every band that was doing "interesting music" in 1968-1972 (or so) in this stylistic category.

    Stylistically, proto-prog for me describes bands that started incorporating other music elements other than rock into their music, but stayed primarily less complex from a time-signature and experimental standpoint than bands that would emerge as "progressive rock". Many of the top albums on the list came out well after KC, Genesis, etc., but never incorporated their sound or style.

    Typical stylistic descriptions include a mixture of rock with elements such as psych, stoner, blues-rock, sax in a rock context, brass in a rock context, standard time signatures, etc. Once you start to listen to several of the most commonly referenced albums (Gracious, Cressida, Spring, Gnidrolog, Marsupilami, Indian Summer, etc.), you'll start hearing the stylistic comparisons that set them apart.

    No it's not a perfect explanation or definition. It just is...
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  3. #53
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Exactly. Sure, it's an imperfect marker but you have to start somewhere and [ItCotKC] is probably the best in terms of an overall consensus between musicians and fans.
    It's the first mature, fully-realized "Prog" album, a definitive statement of intent in which all of the markers of the new music crystallize, while eschewing the psych-isms of "proto" (e.g., the aforementioned "In Held 'Twas In I").

    Though not unproblematic, I imagine "proto-Prog" as a kind of ur-Prog, a music still in a state of becoming rather than being. At the "proto" stage the music is not quite walking upright yet; that development occurs with the arrival of the fully erect ItCotKC.

    And IMHO any proto prog list that doesn't include The Nice, The Moodies or The Who is... incomplete.
    At the time we were putting together the list I argued for the inclusion of the the first two but was out-voted. I stand by both. About The Who I'm equivocal....
    Last edited by mogrooves; 05-14-2013 at 09:29 PM.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  4. #54
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    So does anyone else on here besides me think there was prog(and not just proto prog)before ITCOTCK? Just wondering.

  5. #55
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    So does anyone else on here besides me think there was prog (and not just proto prog) before ITCOTCK?
    Who would you suggest?
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  6. #56
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    I was just asking a question. If your answer is no then you wouldn't need to list any bands. I've already posted my opinion on page two.

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    I think the aforementioned 'In Held 'Twas In I' and The Moody Blues' 'Have You Heard' suite are basically very close to what would be deemed 'progressive rock'- predating 'In The Court...'. I can also hear it on a few things on Vanilla Fudge's largely self-penned 'Renaissance' album (by far their best work IMHO) and also the Touch track 'Seventy Five' (the album itself I find very spotty but this track is great). I've always felt Family were an important group, and of course The Nice.

    But in terms of a full album with a consistency of approach, 'In The Court...' was indeed very important- I can't think of an *album* before it with that same unity of sound. I therefore have no problem with it being deemed an arbitary start date but of course, one should always cite the important works preceding it.
    Last edited by JJ88; 05-15-2013 at 09:52 AM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    So does anyone else on here besides me think there was prog(and not just proto prog)before ITCOTCK? Just wondering.
    Soft Machine, Frank Zappa, Nice....

  9. #59
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progmatic View Post
    Soft Machine, Frank Zappa, Nice....


    More than prog, they were psychedelic first, IMHO
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I think the aforementioned 'In Held 'Twas In I' and The Moody Blues' 'Have You Heard' suite are basically very close to what would be deemed 'progressive rock'- predating 'In The Court...'. I can also hear it on a few things on Vanilla Fudge's largely self-penned 'Renaissance' album (by far their best work IMHO) and also the Touch track 'Seventy Five' (the album itself I find very spotty but this track is great). I've always felt Family were an important group, and of course The Nice.
    mmmhhh!!!... VF is the proto-prog band par excellence IMHO, though renaissance ranks amon the best prog albums around. I'd say the same if Touch had done more than one album.

    and yeah, Twas is the first sidelong prog epic, and not too many of them have topped it since...
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  11. #61
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progmatic View Post
    Soft Machine, Frank Zappa, Nice....

    Those, especially The Nice and Soft Machine, are the bands I was thinking of. I haven't heard the first VDGG or Caravan albums so I can't comment on those. Hot Rats and Uncle Meat are definitely prog though. However, I admit Hot Rats leans more towards fusion or jazz rock. Frank was definitely ahead of the curve though.

    All that said, I don't mind if people refer to ITCOTCK as the official starting point for prog. It was probably the first album to really put prog on the map and cement the genre in part because it was pretty successful at the time. It was definitely a landmark album to say the least.
    Last edited by Digital_Man; 05-15-2013 at 11:51 AM.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Fuuuuuck!!!... I finally got to hear me some ID Company (never occured to me to search on YT either)

    Inga and Dagmar in the same band... :love
    Great stuff.I have good ol germanofon bootleg.

    Hanuman - Sonnenaufgang - 1971


  13. #63
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I think the aforementioned 'In Held 'Twas In I' and The Moody Blues' 'Have You Heard' suite are basically very close to what would be deemed 'progressive rock'
    "Very close to.....'progressive rock'" is the determinative condition of "proto-Prog".
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  14. #64
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    "Very close to.....'progressive rock'" is the determinative condition of "proto-Prog".

    Some of the songs on ITCOTCK are very close to progressive rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philsunset View Post
    Proto-prog is garage and psychedelia with some classical influences. To my way of thinking, proto-prog ceased to exist with the release of ITCOTCK.
    It's a good thing no one listens to you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forester1 View Post
    Only one snag with the list that supposedly dates from 1984 ... at No. 15 it has a 1992 album from Anglagard - what foresight
    I beleive its 2004 - Gnosis2000 didn't exist in 1984.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Views on what proto-prog is or isn't are as numerous as the members on PE.

    For me proto-prog first and foremost isn't prog, as should be obvious to everyone by the term. Nor is it blues or jazz or fusion.

    For me proto-prog has always referred to pop/rock bands in the late 60s that were pushing past the psych/acid rock style into something new and refers exclusively to bands that NEVER became prog bands, by either splitting up in the late 60s or carrying on into some style other than prog. Proto-prog ceased to be in about 69-70,so referring to an early album by a prog band as proto-prog is a contradiction. Also using the term to refer to current bands is impossible because prog has existed for decades.
    Probably the worst attempt at defining proto-prog I've ever seen. Take a look at what Mogrooves says. HE knows what he's talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Long live the Duck:

    If you love the Duck, check out Andromeda-s/t(bassist Mick Hawksworth), Capability Brown(guitarist Graham White) and the first Tucky Buzzard(drummer Paul Francis) - with a nice cover of "Time will be your doctor"

  19. #69
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Will do Jim....
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well, except for Moodies (4 of their classic 7 are pre-70's), given that most of The Who's recorded out put were post-60's (unlike The Nice), I'm not convinced they are proto-prog (despite the band being in PA's PP section) >> their proggier works (Tommuy and Quadrophenia) were 70's works (barely for the former, though)
    I include The Who both for their influence as instrumentalists (Entwistle and Moon, especially), as well as for the vision and daring in works such as "Rael", "A Quick One While He's Away", and pretty much the entire Sell Out album.

  21. #71
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    I include The Who both for their influence as instrumentalists (Entwistle and Moon, especially), as well as for the vision and daring in works such as "Rael", "A Quick One While He's Away", and pretty much the entire Sell Out album.
    I'm one who doesn't find Sell-Out worth all the hoopla made by progheads about this album

    But yeah, The Loon and The Ox were awesome
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  22. #72
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    bump(for someone who couldn't find this)

  23. #73
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    LOL, what a couple of crappy lists (page 1), neither of them contain the best selling Prog album of all time: Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon, a sad joke...

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    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythos View Post
    LOL, what a couple of crappy lists (page 1), neither of them contain the best selling Prog album of all time: Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon, a sad joke...
    I can't tell if you're trolling or just ignorant.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  25. #75
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    Probably an ignorant troll.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

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