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Thread: Book publishing crisis

  1. #26
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    Science and Law would not function without standards in writing.
    But this is really about the publishing of fiction, right? Not scientific or law texts. I don't think scientific and legal publishing is going toward self-publishing, are they?

  2. #27
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    When I read that post I thought it said FILTHY Shades of Grey. Some of the girls at work said those books really melt their butter nicely (well, in so many words, swoons and puddles they implied it). Then again, they listen to Britney Spears too so I don't think great lit is what they are after to accompany their vibrators on a cold, autumn night.
    Maybe they need Magma to accompany their vibrators.

  3. #28
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    But this is really about the publishing of fiction, right? Not scientific or law texts. I don't think scientific and legal publishing is going toward self-publishing, are they?
    While not directly connected, I look at it this way: Basic literacy and knowledge of grammar and spelling are the bottom line for further studies in any field. So while scientific and legal documents may be written correctly, if a young person were to grow up in a world with no standards in basic literature he/she would be greatly disadvantaged when confronted by texts that require clear comprehension.

  4. #29
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post


    I don't know if you did it on purpose (if you did, I find it "à propos" and funny)... but this is exaxctly what I meant... a minimum of control about content (quality and a minimum of veracity, not speaking of censorship issues, here) and spelling is absolutely necessary, when it comes to a real book (nevermind the forum posting, where most don't go past re-reading themselves once >> I don't )

    Not on purpose unfortunately ... editor needed!

  5. #30
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    While not directly connected, I look at it this way: Basic literacy and knowledge of grammar and spelling are the bottom line for further studies in any field. So while scientific and legal documents may be written correctly, if a young person were to grow up in a world with no standards in basic literature he/she would be greatly disadvantaged when confronted by texts that require clear comprehension.
    I'm with you on this. Access to language and vocabulary opens doors. With limited language skills comes limited access to almost every resource our government and civil society offers. Outside of catching such language and vocabulary from one's parents, the best way to develop those skills is to read things written in the language of government and civil society. This doesn't mean keeping a copy of the tax code on your nightstand, but it does mean reading things that use the same grammar conventions, vocabulary, and spelling as newspapers, legal documents, etc.

    Marketing, by its very nature, seeks to accommodate the broadest swath of the population. So self-consciously styled pop-culture and the daily ins-and-outs of the marketplace do little to develop language skills beyond the most rudimentary levels. Designers, producers, and distributors don't want language to be a barrier for the use and enjoyment of their wares. Consequently, one can "get by" on a very basic skill set. However, it is very difficult to advance or prosper without use of sophisticated language.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  6. #31
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    When I read that post I thought it said FILTHY 50 Shades of Grey. Some of the girls at work said those books really melt their butter nicely (well, in so many words, swoons and puddles they implied it). Then again, they listen to Britney Spears too so I don't think great lit is what they are after to accompany their vibrators on a cold, autumn night.
    That's now known as "clit lit" (I'm serious too).... as opposed as "chick lit"

    apparently, it's quite repetitive too.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  7. #32
    PiscesPraematurus PiscesPraematurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave the Brave View Post
    Well I'm in the business and have 3 publishers I work for as a designer/typesetter and I'm getting all the business I can handle.

    All are niche market publishers and now have me producing e-book versions of all the print books I produce.

    D t B
    Me, too, but I'm in higher education publishing, and the revenue stream doesn't seem greatly diminished, and major publishers are aiming for absolutely 0% bound books --- the goal is all eBooks, all the time.

    My concern is security, piracy and file theft --- the music business wasn't able to prevent any of it, especially in Asia.

  8. #33
    PiscesPraematurus PiscesPraematurus's Avatar
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    I agree with you and I'll raise two concerns/observations: In the U.S., at least, the cultural preference is anti-intellectual, anti-education, basically anti-smart. There's seems to be great pride in stupidity, as if somehow lack of learning is the virtue. As well, I think we've fully morphed into a visual culture rather than a literary (or even literate) culture.

    If you read letters from moderately educated Civil War soldiers, they tend to be well-written, thoughtful and grammatically correct. Very few American college students can produce anything like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    While not directly connected, I look at it this way: Basic literacy and knowledge of grammar and spelling are the bottom line for further studies in any field. So while scientific and legal documents may be written correctly, if a young person were to grow up in a world with no standards in basic literature he/she would be greatly disadvantaged when confronted by texts that require clear comprehension.

  9. #34
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    In the long view, there is also a concern about the transmission of knowledge. Books are pretty sturdy and durable. All you need is to read the language in which they were written and some light to access them. While digital files eminently more portable and accessible, their media is a lot more fragile and demand a highly technological and power-hungry infrastructure.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  10. #35
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    In the long view, there is also a concern about the transmission of knowledge. Books are pretty sturdy and durable. All you need is to read the language in which they were written and some light to access them.
    Indeed. But nothing beats stone though, aye? When all the digital files are corrupted and paper turns to dust future civilizations will still be able to see what the ancients carved in stone.

  11. #36
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    But this is really about the publishing of fiction, right? Not scientific or law texts. I don't think scientific and legal publishing is going toward self-publishing, are they?
    Working for a scientific research institute, we have our own publications and it's the samle for most other institutions... So you can publish something, but if you want it accepted anywhere, you have to accept peer-reviews (this is the next big thing afterpublishing for a scientist), which often tries to demolish what you QED'd...

    You may get discredited, but the books are printed... though they will get a bad rep that you won't do much about or with it

    Quote Originally Posted by PiscesPraematurus View Post
    If you read letters from moderately educated Civil War soldiers, they tend to be well-written, thoughtful and grammatically correct. Very few American college students can produce anything like it.
    mmmhhh!!!... in yestercenturies, there were tons of public writers that wrote the letter you were unable to write yourself. This was happening in armies as well


    But you're right, the average quidam that went toschool long enough had a much better proper-language-enforcement schooling
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by PiscesPraematurus View Post
    In the U.S., at least, the cultural preference is anti-intellectual, anti-education, basically anti-smart. There's seems to be great pride in stupidity, as if somehow lack of learning is the virtue.
    Please, let's leave right-wing politics out of this.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by East New York View Post
    (and that damn Pleistocene Porn series; great research, Ms. Auel, but you couldn't write your way out of a paper bag.)

    lol. I remember picking that up to read when I was 13 and my jaw hit the ground when I got to certain sections. Meanwhile my mom had forbidden me to read some of the books she was reading because they might be inappropriate. Little did she know ha ha.
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  14. #39
    Glad this thread is still alive. I have a friend who is writing a book. It's quite a story and we'd like to get it reviewed when completed. I would surmise that, in these days of digital books and the inherent less expense on the part of the publishers, there might be more opportunity to get published. Sure, I know there are a million writers out there who all think they have the next best-seller. But, I'm curious about the tiers of publishers out there and how to go about getting consideration. So, any of you guys who work at publishers, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

  15. #40
    I'd guess that the same issues facing the book industry are what the music industry has faced over the past 10-15 years. Lower bar to entry, no need for trad distribution, etc, but I would venture to say that society as a whole are probably reading "in all forms" more then ever before. Is it good/bad? Let the debate begin!

    As a self-publisher, I have two things from my experience to offer. First, I wrote my book in a complete vacuum. Would I love to have had an editor/publisher/etc to help make the book better? You bet. Not a day passes when I wish I had collaborators and more peer review (pm, please!).

    Secondly, I still sold a lot of books, about 2,500 and counting - almost every day someone purchases it. Reviews on Amazons are good, as was most feedback, so I'd venture to say that it achieved its purpose, which was to promote progressive rock.

    So, would it have been better by traditional publishing? Probably so. Did it suffer by being self-published? I don't think so. But foremost, it exists, and that's really the point, isn't it?
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  16. #41
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    So, would it have been better by traditional publishing? Probably so. Did it suffer by being self-published? I don't think so. But foremost, it exists, and that's really the point, isn't it?
    I don't think anybody is saying self publishing is bad. It isn't, it's a great opportunity. The issue is conglomerates like Amazon pushing the prices down on published books and breaking the back of traditional publishing. It will be a sad day indeed when all writing is in the realm of hobbyists. Professional writing and the standards that come with it need to be protected for everyone's sake.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    . It will be a sad day indeed when all writing is in the realm of hobbyists. Professional writing and the standards that come with it need to be protected for everyone's sake.
    Are self-released bands any less professional than bands signed to major labels? Have websites lowered the standard for news compared to print? Is Amazon to the book, as Apple was to the album?

    Reading/information is not going away; as for standards, I should think that good art will always survive. Again, just like music industry, the book industry needs to reinvent itself in this digital era.
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  18. #43
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    Are self-released bands any less professional than bands signed to major labels? Have websites lowered the standard for news compared to print?
    The Art side of the issue does not really concern me, it's maintaining standards in professional writing that I see as the primary issue. As you mentioned website news, I'll state that I think this is a case in point. With so much 'free' news available now on the web newspapers have been brought to their knees. Those that have not gone bankrupt have had to make drastic staff cutbacks. So, where in the past every major newspaper sent their own reporters to distant and overseas locations to do reporting, now many must rely on common sources, thus drastically reducing the amount of perspectives the public are able to read on certain issues. Grassroots news is great on a small scale but there is no way DIY news on the web will ever be able to make up for what is being lost.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    The Art side of the issue does not really concern me, it's maintaining standards in professional writing that I see as the primary issue. As you mentioned website news, I'll state that I think this is a case in point. With so much 'free' news available now on the web newspapers have been brought to their knees. Those that have not gone bankrupt have had to make drastic staff cutbacks. So, where in the past every major newspaper sent their own reporters to distant and overseas locations to do reporting, now many must rely on common sources, thus drastically reducing the amount of perspectives the public are able to read on certain issues. Grassroots news is great on a small scale but there is no way DIY news on the web will ever be able to make up for what is being lost.
    I won't disagree with any of this, but I will add that this is not universally true. There are many website-only ventures that have upheld "professional" standards, and even brought their audience forward from print equivalents. For example in the "tech" arena, Ars technica, Engadget and others have supplanted many traditional mags. It should also be noted that these are owned by "conglomerates", so the industry has a way forward....

    The issue is when will the "advertising model" give way to the "paid subscription" model. For example, I get a pop-up from the Chicago Tribune that I've exceeded the monthly quota for my "free" account. Just yesterday I looked to see what it would cost to have "unlimited" access to the Tribe. $14 month. Guess they'll have to rely on advertisers.

    In all this discussion, I'd like to point out that the magazine Stereophile remains a wonderful relic of that old era, in every way; quality of writing/number of pages/it even looks like a magazine (as opposed to a catalog). Obviously the are a specific niche, but what a joy to be reminded of the bygone era of magazines every month!
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  20. #45
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    I won't disagree with any of this, but I will add that this is not universally true. There are many website-only ventures that have upheld "professional" standards, and even brought their audience forward from print equivalents. For example in the "tech" arena, Ars technica,
    Yes, that is a good one. With regards to general news I'm not convinced yet, though. With a dwindling number of news outlets news easily gets skewed by invested parties — the Faux News effect.

  21. #46
    PiscesPraematurus PiscesPraematurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    In the long view, there is also a concern about the transmission of knowledge. Books are pretty sturdy and durable. All you need is to read the language in which they were written and some light to access them. While digital files eminently more portable and accessible, their media is a lot more fragile and demand a highly technological and power-hungry infrastructure.
    Definitely true that, if my electricity goes, the Kindle Fire is useless. But so's my reading lamp. However, I can take the bound book out under the Sun. Unless it's Winter. Maybe a solar-powered Kindle Fire connected to a wind-powered electrical source and a corn-fuel-powered server will work eternally!
    Last edited by PiscesPraematurus; 11-29-2012 at 03:37 PM.

  22. #47
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    A related article:
    New media world won't end need for journalists
    Bloggers, “crowdsourcing” and computer-generated articles are making contributions to the news media, but they cannot replace professional journalists in digging up important news.

    That is the message of a major study released last week by Columbia University’s Tow Center for Digital Journalism, titled “Post-Industrial Journalism.”

    The authors of the report said technology has led to an explosion in the amount of information available, with economic shifts which are affecting journalism in both negative and positive ways.
    But because of the changes to the media, the report said the advertising-supported model of newspaper and broadcast journalism may never be the same, and this means news “has to become cheaper to produce.”

    “There is no way to preserve or restore the shape of journalism as it has been practiced for the past 50 years,” said authors C.W. Anderson, Emily Bell and Clay Shirky.

    They said the changes have lead to “a reduction in the quality of news in the United States,” and added: “We are convinced that journalism in this country will get worse before it gets better, and, in some places (principally midsize and small cities with no daily paper) it will get markedly worse.”

  23. #48
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    My wife's grandmother read all those Jean Auel books. Now I know why. "His caveman member stiffened in response..."

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