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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    IMO and as a dealer for over 40 years.

    There's nothing wrong with releasing a CDR AS LONG AS you tell people that they are buying a CDR. Otherwise, it isn't being honest / transparent with the buyer about what you are selling them.

    Gotic - for example - specifically didn't do that, hence a lot of people were upset with their purchase.
    Thanks for weighing in, Steve. I remember when the Gotic album came out and that happened; I bought it after hearing it was a CD-R, but they should have been up front about it. I wasn't aware of anything like that with Oceanarium though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Amazon sometimes doesn't make it clear that you are buying a CDR, which leads to a lot of people being upset. [Additionally, they specifically do not tell the customer that their CDRs are sourced from mp3s, not wav files!]
    Yes, and this is something I do have a problem with. It's happened to me a few times. Not only do they sell them with cheaply made packaging/labels (the Yes Remixes one was laughable), they aren't even made from a high quality audio source. It's ridiculous.

  2. #52
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    Alright, I'll go ahead and give you guys the whole backstory on the CD-R thing. I actually just sent Bill (Sputnik) a PM about it, but I guess I might as well post it here:

    It's a long story: The music on "Oceanarium" is about 79 minutes and 40 seconds long. Since I own many CDs that long, I thought it would be fine when I was working on the music. But when I started looking for manufacturers, all of them told me that manufacturing a regular CD longer than 78 minutes means it might not work in some CD players. One person even told me they couldn't make CDs over 74 minutes, believe it or not. My response was "Well, I own many professionally pressed CDs over 78 minutes that all work fine, and I don't recall seeing anybody ever complain about them not working," but the manufacturers would still either say something like "We cannot make this 79-minute CD for you at all," or "We'll will only make this if you sign a waiver saying you acknowledge that the CD might not be playable." The company I used, Discmakers, who are big and have been around a long time, told me they could make it under two options: (a) we make factory-pressed CDs and I sign a waiver basically saying "If this CD doesn't work at all, I still have to pay $2,378 for all 1,000 CDs," or (b) we make CD-Rs - no waiver necessary, and playback is fully guaranteed on all players. The cost difference was small ($2,267 for CD-Rs vs. $2,378 for regular CDs - the CD-Rs were only about 5-percent cheaper, so I didn't care about the price difference at all).

    I asked whether there might be a color to the CD-R that would make it easy to identify as a CD-R, and they told me (a direct quote) : "The CD-R's we use have a silver bottom, so they look just like a replicated cd." Since I believed them, it was actually a pretty easy decision- If both options look the same, then I want 1,000 CDs that will definitely work, not 1,000 CDs that might not work.

    But when I received the CDs, I was very disappointed to see there was a slight greenish hue on the disc (a sign of a CD-R). But I wasn't sure if other people would notice this and complain, so I thought it might be ok. I know some people don't like CD-Rs, though I don't quite understand why. (I think in the early days of CD-Rs, some would not play as well as regular CDs, so that gave them a bad reputation. But I think those issues have been corrected in modern CD-Rs, especially professionally-made CD-Rs like the ones I got.) As far as I know, only a few people have noticed and complained. 80 percent of them here on Progressive Ears, actually.

    You might be wondering "Why didn't you just make a double CD set?" In hindsight, maybe that would have been the best option, but artistically, I always thought of this album as being a cramming together of lots of musical ideas and styles into one unit (like fitting an ocean into an aquarium), so the idea of spreading it across 2 CDs went against that. Plus, the manufacturer did tell me "they look just like a replicated cd."

    I did actually eventually get some replicated, "factory-pressed" CDs made. They work just fine on all 7 of the computers and CD players in my house (as did the original CD-R versions). If I could magically give everyone in the world who has the original version one of these copies, I would be happy to do so, even though that would basically mean I would lose $2,000. But realistically, it would probably require me to spend maybe $10,000 dollars on shipping and hundreds of hours of time, when I suspect there are maybe 50 people worldwide who actually care about it.

    So the disadvantage of the replicated, "factory-pressed" CD is that most CD manufacturers say there is a risk that they won't work at all, because the music is longer than 78 minutes. Will it work in only 93% of CD players in the world? Or is it 99.9%? Or is it all CD players made after 1993? I don't know, and I doubt anyone really knows for sure.

    The disadvantage of the CD-R is that they have a greenish hue, and some collectors don't like them, for whatever reason. Will 12 percent of CD-Rs deteriorate after 10 years? Will scratches lead to skips more easily? I don't know, and, again, as far as I can tell, nobody knows.

    Obviously, I learned my lesson- just don't try to manufacture CDs longer than 78 minutes at all.

  3. #53
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnieper View Post
    "We'll will only make this if you sign a waiver saying you acknowledge that the CD might not be playable."
    I've signed one of those waivers for every post 78 minute CD Cuneiform have ever released and also, in the early days, for every post 74 minute CD we have ever released.

    It's a cover-their-ass move. Why didn't you drop me a line; if you had, I would have told you to sign it and not worry about it?....
    Steve F.

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    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  4. #54
    Dan, thanks for sharing the backstory. That was interesting to read, as I'd never been aware of the length/capacity of a CD versus a CD-R being a factor in manufacturing. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it.


    Quote Originally Posted by dnieper View Post
    Obviously, I learned my lesson- just don't try to manufacture CDs longer than 78 minutes at all.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I've signed one of those waivers for every post 78 minute CD Cuneiform have ever released and also, in the early days, for every post 74 minute CD we have ever released.

    It's a cover-their-ass move. Why didn't you drop me a line; if you had, I would have told you to sign it and not worry about it?....
    I guess I should have- add this to my list of "If I had known's...."

    But if they want to cover themselves for any fallout from a 79-minute CD, why wouldn't they want to cover themselves for any fallout from a CD-R? They seemed to think there was virtually no risk of going that route (no need to sign any kind of waiver), and this was a company that has probably manufactured thousands of copies of thousands of albums over the years.
    Last edited by dnieper; 10-23-2020 at 02:00 AM.

  6. #56
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    The center ring is the dead giveaway for a CD-R. A silver CD has those side-by-side "rectangles" that alternate between lighter and slightly darker colors. They take up roughly 1/4 of the center ring's circumference.

    Also, the matrix numbers on a silver CD will arc around the center hole. Many times a CD-R will have numbers in the center ring written in a straight line. If a CD-R does have numbers written in an arc around the center, it will be black print, not silver etching. Sometimes a CD-R won't have any numbers in the center ring.

    The color of the CD-R will usually have a greenish caste, as Dan found, but of course can be different colored. I've never seen a silver CD-R though.

    Lastly, if bright light is reflected off the read side of the CD-R, a bigger and brighter rainbow pattern will be visible than with a silver CD. All in my experience, of course.

  7. #57
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Dan, I appreciate your response.

    I think the problem here, as Steve stated eloquently, is that people weren't told what they were getting. This is still true today. Steve's site makes no mention of this being a CDR. Nor does Discogs.

    I can, at some level, understand why you did what you did and wound up with CDRs. What I can't understand is why you weren't clear and up-front with people about what they were. That just seems wrong to me. Collecting (and buying, generally) has an emotional component to it. Call me a relic, call me what you will, say I'm old fashioned, say I'm over the hill, but when I buy a CD, I want it to be a CD. It makes me feel more confident, especially give my dreadful track record with CDRs (which I have great doubts are addressed by modern CDR production), and it just plain makes me feel good to get what I thought I was getting. This does not make me feel good, and that bad feeling bleeds to the music itself. I know some won't understand that, but it's how I feel, so perhaps I don't need to justify it to anyone.

    It certainly brings me no joy to have raised this, but there are people who do care (this came to my attention from someone on Facebook who was disappointed), and I'm one of them. I hope you'll just be up-front with folks in the future. They may disagree with your decision, but the choice will then be theirs to make about what to do based on full disclosure.

    Bill

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    Again, I'm sorry if this has left people unhappy. Bill and I are working something out via PM.

    I've bought CDs that turned out to be CD-Rs many times. It doesn't bother me very much. They're rarely labeled as such, at least not that I've noticed, which makes me think it doesn't bother most people either. If this were a huge issue, people could have asked me about it, and I think I've only heard of about 5 people worldwide who have noticed and cared.

    CDs have all sorts of characteristics- digipak vs. jewel case, booklet length, full color printing vs. black and white, remastering, remixing, bonus tracks, whether the title on the spine is centered or not, whether the drumming is real or programmed, whether the mellotron is real or sampled, etc. To me, CD-R vs. CD is just one of those issues. Some people care about it, most people don't. Sometimes it's easy to find out these characteristics for a CD, sometimes it's not. I don't think it's really necessary to describe all of these things when you're selling CDs, simply because when I buy CDs, I often can't tell for sure what I'm getting- that's generally the way things are, for better or worse. Steve F. says he's released 78+ minute CDs, which CD manufacturers say might not be playable at all, but I don't think he warned people about that upfront, nor do I think he should have, from what I know. Another issue is that a professionally manufactured CD-R in 2020 or 2017 is very different from a CD-R someone made on their home computer in 2001. Yet people often use the term "CD-R" when describing both. That disparity makes the term very imprecise and potentially misleading.

  9. #59
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnieper View Post
    Steve F. says he's released 78+ minute CDs, which CD manufacturers say might not be playable at all, but I don't think he warned people about that upfront, nor do I think he should have, from what I know.
    Ahem. But Steve F. also is here to make good on it if it doesn't play.

    Your product isn't listed as a CDR in our catalog because you neglected to tell me it was a CDR. It definitely does bother people. We generally don't carry CDRs that we know are CDRs and we have returned CDRs to bands who released things we wanted to carry when they neglected to tell us were CDRs and when they showed up, I realized that they were CDRs.

    WHEN we are aware that they are CDRs, we always say so in our listings.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  10. #60
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    To think, this all started because I posted a photo in a FB group of my copy of Oceanarium against the backdrop of colourfall fall trees outside my window, and someone commented on it, which caused the subject to roll over to these parts!

    Dan, it's to your credit that you have responded and are not just brushing it aside. I understand that you just didn't think it was a big deal (indeed it's not to everyone), and it's clear there was no sinister dishonesty on your part.

    It is a matter of concern though, for some of us who do consider CDs and CD-Rs quite different things, from a collectible point of view particularly. For those who don't - great. But I totally relate to what Bill described above. Sure, the music is the most important thing (and yours is excellent), but if it was the only thing, I would just be one of those digital-only guys, rather than (literally) surrounded by my collection. And I really don't want CD-Rs in my collection, whether they are old home computer TDKs with Sharpie titles or the more modern manufactured ones. That's just how some of us are. Perhaps that line of thinking shares something with vinyl enthusiasts who only want first pressings or something. Not exactly the same thing, but a similar mindset.

    As was mentioned, what it all boils down to is how the product is advertised. And in the end, I don't think that's unreasonable. But hey, live and learn, right?

    Out of interest, this was my Amazon complaint thread about this very topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Ahem. But Steve F. also is here to make good on it if it doesn't play.

    Your product isn't listed as a CDR in our catalog because you neglected to tell me it was a CDR. It definitely does bother people. We generally don't carry CDRs that we know are CDRs and we have returned CDRs to bands who released things we wanted to carry when they neglected to tell us were CDRs and when they showed up, I realized that they were CDRs.

    WHEN we are aware that they are CDRs, we always say so in our listings.
    Steve, I acknowledge and respect all the work you do to keep your customers happy. I know that can be tough. If anyone complains to you about an Oceanarium CD they've bought from you, please let me know. Ultimately, if someone cares about this, it's their responsibility to look out for it. As mentioned above, there are dozens of things a person could conceivably get upset about for any CD, and presumably, if they've actually received the physical product without saying anything to the seller about those things, it's reasonable to think they've looked it over for whatever characteristics are important to them. To this date, I'm aware of about 5 people worldwide, out of presumably 400 to 1,000 CD owners, who have noticed this issue and communicated with me directly about it. And I've taken steps, sometimes pretty big steps, to try to make each of them happy.

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    ^^^^

    Dan, I hope this "issue" can be laid to rest but it looks as if it will continue to simmer no matter what you say to quell it. I regret that you have to keep explaining yourself, however, I think that you put your best foot forward in the effort.

    From my perspective, please just continue to produce outstanding musical output that is of timeless value and endless beauty, as you have done so well over these past 15 years or so.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    Not sure if this helps, but here you go.

    Have to say, the more I look at it, the more it looks like a CDR to me. This is totally baffling, as the cost and trouble they went through to print the packaging, having a factory pressed CD would have been pennies additional cost per unit. If this is true, I am a VERY unhappy customer!

    Bill
    Definitely a factory manufactured CDR.

    I have also an identifier freeware that reads the surface of the disk and reports if the medium is a CDR, its manufacturer and the material tat the disk is fabricated. If a normal CD is inserted in the computer, the output reports nothing. I will upload the link later this day if it's still on the internet.
    Macht das ohr auf!

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  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by dnieper View Post

    The disadvantage of the CD-R is that they have a greenish hue, and some collectors don't like them, for whatever reason. Will 12 percent of CD-Rs deteriorate after 10 years? Will scratches lead to skips more easily? I don't know, and, again, as far as I can tell, nobody knows..
    To me they do have two major disadvantages.

    1. Their expected average lifespan is way less than a normal CD's. So buying cost should be adjusted accordingly (and of course it's not your fault if the pressing plant charges almost the same).
    2. You can burn one on your own 90% cheaper and have the exact same product.
    Last edited by spacefreak; 10-23-2020 at 05:12 AM.
    Macht das ohr auf!

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  15. #65
    No disrespect to anyone who is/was unhappy about the CD-R, but to maybe shift discussion back to the music...

    Back in 2009 I got both August in the Urals and Birds & Buildings at the same time after hearing about them from some folks on the official Genesis forum. With B&B, I immediately connected. But I struggled with August in the Urals for some reason; it was a bit more complex than what I was used to at the time I think. In the years since, I have come to like it much more (and that title track is really lovely). I even corresponded with Dan a bit via email back then, about his music and influences. First time I think I ever heard someone say that their two favorite bands were Genesis and Magma -- and Dan, please correct me if I'm wrong on that. My memory could be failing me.

    It's interesting seeing the evolution of DG and B&B over the years. Multipurpose Trap was a bit different from the first album, but I liked it a lot too. Oceanarium is also quite a bit different from August and The Form of the Good.

  16. #66
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    For me also the Birds and Buildings albums have been faster/easier to connect with than the Deluge Grander albums.
    <sig out of order>

  17. #67
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    It’s funny, I’ve never noticed that Oceanarium was overly quiet, and I’ve played it to death. Though I do listen to classical music as well. Usually I just turn the volume to the proper degree. I think the music itself and arrangement override any slight defects in sound quality. But the big news here is the new DG album! Will seek this out immediately!! ��

  18. #68
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    I got a package in the mail today, and I just want to say that Dan went way above and way beyond to rectify this situation, and his generosity is most appreciated. What a guy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    I got a package in the mail today, and I just want to say that Dan went way above and way beyond to rectify this situation, and his generosity is most appreciated. What a guy!
    Alright! Good to hear.

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    looks like a new album is out today
    Critter Jams "album of the week" blog: http://critterjams.wordpress.com

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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koreabruce View Post
    The new release is shorter in duration than the previous ones, with only one longer cut. However, it does sound interesting as all their output has been.

  23. #73
    Autobuy.

    One more thing: in the difficult times we live in, to have the music offered in such a low price is most welcome, and acknowledged by me as a meaningful gesture. Let's just say as far as I am concerned that my financial situation is dismal. I can hardly stop by Bandcamp and by some digital files now and then, and haven't bought anything physical in a very long time.
    I paid something extra than the price asked and have the chance to listen to the music. It's quite important for me. So thank you Dan - I wish I could go for one of the beautiful vinyls - but with postage and custom from US it would be impossible even in good times.

  24. #74
    Just bought my Christmas LP. Thank Zeus I live in US. Look forward to the tunes!

  25. #75
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    for what it's worth there are vinyl copies of August in the Urals, B&B's Bantam to Behemoth, and Oceanarium available now. all quite pricey but I'd love to grab 'em all someday. it's definitely deserving of the format.
    Critter Jams "album of the week" blog: http://critterjams.wordpress.com

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