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Thread: Just Bought A Black Sabbath album

  1. #176


    They did have some fun with it, though.

  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post


    They did have some fun with it, though.
    Indeed.

  3. #178
    I have an original test pressing of the vinyl. I paid ten bucks for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post


    They did have some fun with it, though.
    Sorry, but those look like the S's in the Kiss logo.

  5. #180
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Let me be clear, I don't think the Sabbs were trying to promote Satanism. When I say "Black Sabbath" and "N.I.B." are Satanic, I mean that they deal with Satan, the incarnate evil, as the subject of the song. I mean it in the same when I call a song Christian when the subject of that song is Jesus as Divine Redeemer. I think the Sabbs were trying to make scary music, and they chose a really scary subject, Satan, as a focus. I don't think they were trying to promote devil worship, or anything like that. While obviously misunderstood, they did make a career out of riding that line by deliberately offending religious sensibilities, if only on a superficial level. They called their band Black Sabbath, for mercy's sake. You know that you're going straight up the nose of regular churchgoers with that one.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    Let me be clear, I don't think the Sabbs were trying to promote Satanism. When I say "Black Sabbath" and "N.I.B." are Satanic, I mean that they deal with Satan, the incarnate evil, as the subject of the song. I mean it in the same when I call a song Christian when the subject of that song is Jesus as Divine Redeemer. I think the Sabbs were trying to make scary music, and they chose a really scary subject, Satan, as a focus. I don't think they were trying to promote devil worship, or anything like that. While obviously misunderstood, they did make a career out of riding that line by deliberately offending religious sensibilities, if only on a superficial level. They called their band Black Sabbath, for mercy's sake. You know that you're going straight up the nose of regular churchgoers with that one.
    I thought that N.I.B was about the devil giving up his evil ways because he found love?

  7. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    Let me be clear, I don't think the Sabbs were trying to promote Satanism. When I say "Black Sabbath" and "N.I.B." are Satanic, I mean that they deal with Satan, the incarnate evil, as the subject of the song. I mean it in the same when I call a song Christian when the subject of that song is Jesus as Divine Redeemer. I think the Sabbs were trying to make scary music, and they chose a really scary subject, Satan, as a focus. I don't think they were trying to promote devil worship, or anything like that. While obviously misunderstood, they did make a career out of riding that line by deliberately offending religious sensibilities, if only on a superficial level. They called their band Black Sabbath, for mercy's sake. You know that you're going straight up the nose of regular churchgoers with that one.
    Ah, OK.

  8. #183
    Huh, it never occurred to me to take N.I.B. literally as some kind of love song. I looked at it as Lucifer trying to seduce humans with his lies, basically.

  9. #184
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIF View Post
    I thought that N.I.B was about the devil giving up his evil ways because he found love?
    I don't hear him giving up anything in the lyrics, plus it rather ignores that a the devil is rather widely known as a deceiver and seducer.

    Everyone is welcome to their own read of it to be sure. It reads to me like the devil's best pitch for your soul.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  10. #185
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    I dunno, sometimes Jeff comes off as this holier than thou type, especially when he goes on his rants about performance enhancing drugs. I'm not sure what I said originally or why I reacted the way I did, but it came out of left field, and I don't get what his issue is.

    First off, the comment I made about the new Sabbath song "God Is Dead?" was intended for the "13" thread. Somehow I posted it here. The point I wanted to make, without being longwinded or possibly starting a religious debate was that because I had a religious upbringing, and I'm on the fence about whether I still believe in God or not, I still find some of Sabbath's songs and lyrics a little offensive. But since they put a question mark at the end of the title of God Is Dead, it's not like they're making any kind of declaration. Then Jeff comes out with this:

    Does it "bug you" that your hero Jimmy Page "dated" a 13 year old girl when he was, what ... 29 years old?
    I mean, I didn't know Jimmy dated a 13 year old girl. Honestly, I don't care about my musical hero's personal life. I never knew that, so why would it influence my opinion of Jimmy Page in any way. So what did he do? Did he sequestor this poor little girl against her will? Sheesh. Shaking head in disbelief . Jeff ol' boy, I never heard the story. Unless Jimmy raped, tortured, and murdered people, what he did 30-40 years ago doesn't influence how I listen to Led Zeppelin now. Now please, let's get past this. I made a comment about being conflicted about a song title, and Jeff comes out of left field about dating 13 year old girls, and "hipocrisy" and God knows what. Jeff seriously, before you ask questions like the one you asked and go making assumptions, think twice about it. That is what irritated me about your post. I can't be worried about every rock star or atheletes personal life. If they're breaking laws, being tried and convicted, then fine. In the meantime I just play the records and enjoy them.

    Let me be clear, I don't think the Sabbs were trying to promote Satanism. When I say "Black Sabbath" and "N.I.B." are Satanic, I mean that they deal with Satan, the incarnate evil,
    Well, I believe that "Satan" is an invention of man. Like I keep saying, I'm not sure I believe in the God of the bible anymore but I'm still open minded about there being a "supreme being" or whatever. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. I think I can listen to songs like Black Sabbath and N.I.B. (what does it stand for anyway? Is it really Nativity In Black?) because I have a sense of humor about it. I played Black Sabbath (the album) last night by the way. I couldn't help thinking, God this album was recorded in 1969, and it is fully formed (not proto), evil, Heavy Metal. I think Black Sabbath were just a fucking sledgehammer. They weren't exactly subtle, and that's one reason why they might've been offensive. That first album was unique. There was still a lot of the 60s, jam band vibe on that album, but clearly they were on to something new.

    You know it's like when we look back over the history of rock music we have a need to clearly define genres and eras. We talk about ITCOTCK being the album that started "prog" (as just one example). There were heavy bands in the 60s before Black Sabbath but they were still clinging to their blues roots. Cream was the biggest influence that gets mentioned a lot whenever I read articles and interviews about all these bands like Sabbath, Grand Funk, Blue Cheer, and others in the late 60s. I remember that era well (from about 1968 to 71). Black Sabbath really is the first, fully formed, heavy metal band that was in the mainstream. And the first album can be looked at as the album that started it all (like ITCOTCK) in heavy metal.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic2012 View Post
    I dunno, sometimes Jeff comes off as this holier than thou type, especially when he goes on his rants about performance enhancing drugs. I'm not sure what I said originally or why I reacted the way I did, but it came out of left field, and I don't get what his issue is.

    First off, the comment I made about the new Sabbath song "God Is Dead?" was intended for the "13" thread. Somehow I posted it here. The point I wanted to make, without being longwinded or possibly starting a religious debate was that because I had a religious upbringing, and I'm on the fence about whether I still believe in God or not, I still find some of Sabbath's songs and lyrics a little offensive. But since they put a question mark at the end of the title of God Is Dead, it's not like they're making any kind of declaration. Then Jeff comes out with this:



    I mean, I didn't know Jimmy dated a 13 year old girl. Honestly, I don't care about my musical hero's personal life. I never knew that, so why would it influence my opinion of Jimmy Page in any way. So what did he do? Did he sequestor this poor little girl against her will? Sheesh. Shaking head in disbelief . Jeff ol' boy, I never heard the story. Unless Jimmy raped, tortured, and murdered people, what he did 30-40 years ago doesn't influence how I listen to Led Zeppelin now. Now please, let's get past this. I made a comment about being conflicted about a song title, and Jeff comes out of left field about dating 13 year old girls, and "hipocrisy" and God knows what. Jeff seriously, before you ask questions like the one you asked and go making assumptions, think twice about it. That is what irritated me about your post. I can't be worried about every rock star or atheletes personal life. If they're breaking laws, being tried and convicted, then fine. In the meantime I just play the records and enjoy them.



    Well, I believe that "Satan" is an invention of man. Like I keep saying, I'm not sure I believe in the God of the bible anymore but I'm still open minded about there being a "supreme being" or whatever. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. I think I can listen to songs like Black Sabbath and N.I.B. (what does it stand for anyway? Is it really Nativity In Black?) because I have a sense of humor about it. I played Black Sabbath (the album) last night by the way. I couldn't help thinking, God this album was recorded in 1969, and it is fully formed (not proto), evil, Heavy Metal. I think Black Sabbath were just a fucking sledgehammer. They weren't exactly subtle, and that's one reason why they might've been offensive. That first album was unique. There was still a lot of the 60s, jam band vibe on that album, but clearly they were on to something new.

    You know it's like when we look back over the history of rock music we have a need to clearly define genres and eras. We talk about ITCOTCK being the album that started "prog" (as just one example). There were heavy bands in the 60s before Black Sabbath but they were still clinging to their blues roots. Cream was the biggest influence that gets mentioned a lot whenever I read articles and interviews about all these bands like Sabbath, Grand Funk, Blue Cheer, and others in the late 60s. I remember that era well (from about 1968 to 71). Black Sabbath really is the first, fully formed, heavy metal band that was in the mainstream. And the first album can be looked at as the album that started it all (like ITCOTCK) in heavy metal.
    Feel free to post this on the 13 thread. I'm the one that started the thread. I don't take offense to you calling Sabbath Satanists(not saying that you did specifically). You can interpret Sabbath's lyrics anyway you choose if you don't understand them.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    The Sabbs want to have it both ways. They did a couple songs on their first album that were blatantly Satanic, ("Black Sabbath" and "N.I.B.") and named themselves Black Sabbath. They were presenting something akin to theater, like Rosemary's Baby, but the Satanism thing stuck to them in a way they didn't expect. People pinned it to them personally. They didn't care for the personal associations, but the evil mystique helped to sell a lot of records. So they back-peddled on the Satanic thing lyric-wise but kept the name and the evil iconography. They constantly send mixed messages this way. Visuals associated with the band are evil, the music is flat-out aggressive, but the lyrics are more about a struggle against evil. Its easy to see why the casual observer would be confused. They have to get past the images and the aggression to finally get to the lyrics. A lot of people just don't get that far.
    Good points made there. I can't help thinking that Sabbath really is the most evil sounding band ever. I'm referring to a band that's been in the mainstream of rock/metal music since day one. But like I said earlier, I can sit through lyrics like ....my name is Lucifer, please take my hand ..... because it's so ridiculously funny. And when you put it in the context of who's singing those lyrics, it's even more hysterical. At the time it was released I would've been very offended and not found anything funny about it though. Sabbath were just too blunt for me back then.

    This is a true recollection. I've never told this story before. And I think this is why I've always been intrigued (and a little repulsed) by Black Sabbath. I grew up in San Francisco. I think SF is where Anton Lavey founbed his "church" if I'm not mistaken. So Black Sabbath were in San Francisco promoting either Paranoid, or Black Sabbath. There was this news clip on TV about this new band that was promoting their new album. Then they showed footage of the band playing on a big flatbed truck while it was moving down the street. I forget now what part of town they were in. And Anton Lavey was sitting there throwing horns. Look it up, I'm sure there might still be footage of this somewhere, or there's probably something written about it. But the whole thing kind of intrigued me and scared the shit outta me.
    Last edited by Vic2012; 04-20-2013 at 08:08 AM.

  13. #188
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    Feel free to post this on the 13 thread. I'm the one that started the thread. I don't take offense to you calling Sabbath Satanists(not saying that you did specifically). You can interpret Sabbath's lyrics anyway you choose if you don't understand them.
    I'd prefer not to post this on that thread. That thread should be a discussion about the new album. I didn't say they were Satanists either. I wish people would stop making so many extreme assumptions. Just because I said I found something offensive doesn't mean I'm making accusations about something. Like I always say, it's either one extreme or the other on these forums. I found the title of a song offensive, therefore I'm calling Black Sabbath satanists. Not true. I'm really trying to avoid getting into religion here. I've enjoyed this thread, and I'd hate to see it closed. I don't even want to see an admin even give us a warning about it. Once the admins start the scolding it's all over. I do think we can explore this topic about Sabbath and their occult leanings without it become a religious debate though.

  14. #189
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    When we were kids playing in our first rock band, I remember getting all jazzed up when the turntable, to our impressionable minds, seemed to start itself up and the tone arm purposefully moved right to the beginning of N.I.B., the song which we were learning. That's all we needed to impart some sort of supernatural force invoked by the music! That whole first album with its creepy lady on the cover and the heavy, scary music within, definitely created a mystique back in the day which was very appealing to us young 'uns! I'm sure the Sabs capitalized on all of this to their benefit! I try not to get too philosophical about their lyrics. It's just great music made by middle class lads from industrial Birmingham who probably had very little control of their corporate image and how the kids of the day, and future days, would interpret it!

  15. #190
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    Originally Posted by JIF
    Here's a quote from Tony contained within The Black Box:"the strange effects on Planet Caravan were just me experimenting with different instruments. I played flute on that one-that's another story. I had been playing a Fender Stratocaster, but as I had begun to play a Gibson SG guitar, I swapped the Strat for a saxophone. I drove everybody up the wall at rehearsals trying to play it. So then I swapped the sax for a flute. I had this bright idea of using it on a track, and that's how it ended up on Planet Caravan. Bill played the bongos and we put Ozzy's voice through a modulator". I just don't get why you felt the need to correct me and Vic. I only said that Tony played flute on Caravan, I said nothing about piano.
    I missed this earlier. So there was flute on Planet Caravan? Again, to me it sounds like a wooden flute, like one of those Asian, bamboo things. It's heavily effected with echo too, and gives it a really cool, spaced out vibe. I can't say it enough, I love that track.

  16. #191
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    Black Sabbath really is the first, fully formed, heavy metal band that was in the mainstream. And the first album can be looked at as the album that started it all (like ITCOTCK) in heavy metal.
    I wanted to go back to this for a second because I find rock history fascinating. Being that I was watching a lot of history unfold as it happened. I can except that fully formed, British Heavy Metal started with Black Sabbath. But the "Sabbath Sound" was started on Led Zeppelin's first album (in my opinion of course). No, LZ's debut is not a heavy metal album but songs like Dazed & Confused, and How Many More Times were full blown metal. I could hear Sabbath doing those songs. So, I'm not sure how that "sound" developed but I have to believe that Sabbath were influenced by that first LZ album. There was still some residue of psychedelia in songs like Dazed and How Many More Times, but what made them metal was the BIG guitar riffs. Sabbath latched on to that sound and just stuck with it.

  17. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Vic2012 View Post
    I dunno, sometimes Jeff comes off as this holier than thou type, especially when he goes on his rants about performance enhancing drugs. I'm not sure what I said originally or why I reacted the way I did, but it came out of left field, and I don't get what his issue is.
    I think the issue is that strong opinions seem to sometimes rub you the wrong way, for whatever reasons. And I'm not sure everyone here has been in the "sports threads" and seen my opinions on steroids in today's sports landscape, so a few may be lost, but anyway ...

    For some reason, when you have a strong opinion (IE: some quasi-religious opinion on a freaking song title -- which is quite literally "holier than thou," IMO), anybody who simply calls you to task should "lighten up."

    We just see this differently. It's no big deal. It's cool that you are now enjoying Sabbath because that's common ground and I enjoy reading your insights about discovering this incredible music.
    Last edited by JeffCarney; 04-20-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  18. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Vic2012 View Post
    I wanted to go back to this for a second because I find rock history fascinating. Being that I was watching a lot of history unfold as it happened. I can except that fully formed, British Heavy Metal started with Black Sabbath. But the "Sabbath Sound" was started on Led Zeppelin's first album (in my opinion of course). No, LZ's debut is not a heavy metal album but songs like Dazed & Confused, and How Many More Times were full blown metal. I could hear Sabbath doing those songs. So, I'm not sure how that "sound" developed but I have to believe that Sabbath were influenced by that first LZ album. There was still some residue of psychedelia in songs like Dazed and How Many More Times, but what made them metal was the BIG guitar riffs. Sabbath latched on to that sound and just stuck with it.
    I think the sound you are talking about started with Cream, The Who, Jimi Hendrix and the Jeff Beck Group. Also keep in mind that when Sabbath heard Zep I, I think they were mostly impressed by the production and just wanted to be able to record something like that. I am quite sure when it was issued that they were already doing songs like "Black Sabbath" and "Wicked World." But sure, I suspect that hearing it surely helped further plant seeds for the angle they were trying to take on music.

  19. #194
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I think the sound you are talking about started with Cream, The Who, Jimi Hendrix and the Jeff Beck Group.
    This is what I meant by drinking from the same well. The above artists bridged a gap between American blues musicians and the psychedelic subculture through a heavy electric sound. The bands who hit their respective strides in the early '70s started there, but cut their own respective niches.

    I was just listening to Black Sabbath's debut again this morning, and the first thirty seconds to "Beyond the Wall of Sleep" sounds like something Jethro Tull or Blodwyn Pig would do.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic2012 View Post
    I'd prefer not to post this on that thread. That thread should be a discussion about the new album. I didn't say they were Satanists either. I wish people would stop making so many extreme assumptions. Just because I said I found something offensive doesn't mean I'm making accusations about something. Like I always say, it's either one extreme or the other on these forums. I found the title of a song offensive, therefore I'm calling Black Sabbath satanists. Not true. I'm really trying to avoid getting into religion here. I've enjoyed this thread, and I'd hate to see it closed. I don't even want to see an admin even give us a warning about it. Once the admins start the scolding it's all over. I do think we can explore this topic about Sabbath and their occult leanings without it become a religious debate though.
    Sorry for misunderstanding you. I thought that you said you wanted to post something on the "13" thread. Also, sorry about the misunderstanding about the Satanist and Sabbath thing.

  21. #196
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    I think the sound you are talking about started with Cream, The Who, Jimi Hendrix and the Jeff Beck Group.
    The sound I'm thinking of really doesn't sound like Cream or Hendrix. Although Cream/Hendrix/Beck certainly influenced Sabbath, I'm mainly thinking of that thick, guitar/bass, riff based sound. I'm probably not describing it right (it's difficult to describe a sound).

    I am quite sure when it was issued that they were already doing songs like "Black Sabbath" and "Wicked World."
    Ya got a point there. The big guitar riffs on Dazed & Confused just sound like the template for the Sabbath sound (imo).

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIF View Post
    Sorry for misunderstanding you. I thought that you said you wanted to post something on the "13" thread. Also, sorry about the misunderstanding about the Satanist and Sabbath thing.
    Originally I was going to post my comment about "God Is Dead?" on the 13 thread but I posted it on this thread unintentionally. I didn't think my comment was going cause a big ballyhoo. It's water under the bridge. Let's move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic2012 View Post
    Originally I was going to post my comment about "God Is Dead?" on the 13 thread but I posted it on this thread unintentionally. I didn't think my comment was going cause a big ballyhoo. It's water under the bridge. Let's move on.
    It didn't cause a big ballyhoo with me, but let's move on.

  24. #199
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    the thing with black sabbath was that Tony came up with some of the tastiest riffs ever. he began adding layers of guitars to thicken the heavy sound of the rhythms guitars and the riffage. so to me heavy metal means a certain way of adding and layering guitars and distortion to beef up the sound being used back in the early days of heavy rock and then the so called heavy metal era.

  25. #200
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    Right now the Black Sabbath track that is blowing my mind is Fairies Wear Boots. I never thought of Sabbath as being "technical" but clearly they were damn good musicians.

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