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Thread: King Crimson on iTunes?

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TheH View Post
    Who needs MP3 anyway? Get a CD and make your own files of whatever format you want.

    All this download junk sucks and destroys music anyway.
    No it doesn't, as long as it's not compressed. Nothing wrong with FLAC files, and Fripp is perfectly happy selling those from his site. His issue is iTunes and how little artists are compensated and, as others have said, after all the fighting he's gone through to get the rights to his music (and that of his band mates) back, I can understand why he wants to control how his music goes out into the world.

    But let's be clear: there's nothing inherently evil about digital downloading; the issues are (a) compressing the music that folks have worked hard to make sound as good as possible; and (b) compensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    But meanwhile the overall value of his franchise drops to the point where he has to sell increasingly pricey packages to fewer and fewer people who are mostly all ready fans of the music in question.
    How so? He has offered two special big boxes for hardcore fans. But the CD/DVDA versions have been absolutely reasonably priced, and considering what some groups make you pay for surround sound remixes, downright bargains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks2009 View Post
    Well like it or not, the physical product is getting less and less popular. The consumer demand is drying up rather quickly. I prefer cd's, but even I just load it onto iTunes, it's just an easier format, and I love having all my music in one place. I get the physical product which is great for the artwork, liner notes etc., but I don't even play the disc anymore. Its sort of just the backup if the file gets corrupted. Times change, technology changes and so have I.
    Well, the only issue here is getting into that of sound. If you're putting uncompressed files into iTunes, great; if not, you're compromising sound. You may be fine with that (and more power to ya) but not everyone is. And with some artists, like Steven Wilson, also releasing their music in uncompressed high res, it's absolutely possible to dispense with physical media (check out gubemusic.com, which sells high res music in digital download form), but personally I still think there's a place for both. In fact, I see the market for high res sound growing in the next while until it kinda of settles down. I know that when I upgrade my sound system in 2015 as part of a renovation of our apartment, I'm planning to make it possible to have high res music in both our living room and my office (the second of two bedrooms on our two-bedroom condo). Plan to pick the brains of my good friend Rottersclub, in fact
    Last edited by jkelman; 04-07-2013 at 11:03 PM.

  2. #27
    Mod or rocker? Mocker. Frumious B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    How so? He has offered two special big boxes for hardcore fans. But the CD/DVDA versions have been absolutely reasonably priced, and considering what some groups make you pay for surround sound remixes, downright bargains
    King Crimson is all ready obscure and keeping the band's music out of the world's largest music retailer, keeping it off Pandora etc. can only increase that obscurity, not reduce it. If Fripp doesn't want anyone finding out about his music who doesn't all ready know about it then that's his choice of course.
    "It was a cruel song, but fair."-Roger Waters

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    But meanwhile the overall value of his franchise drops
    You're only talking about money value there. Somehow I doubt that's the point at all (and Crimson would have died the moment anyone ever considered it a "franchise" anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    keeping the band's music out of the world's largest music retailer, keeping it off Pandora etc. can only increase that obscurity, not reduce it.
    From his diary I'd guess (and I could be wrong) that he might be willing to offer his and the band's music through Pandora/Spotify/iTunes or the like someday if they ever become acceptable distributors. But if those companies don't feel any obligation to be decent business partners, why should the artists feel any obligation to work with them anyway?

    If Fripp doesn't want anyone finding out about his music who doesn't [already] know about it then that's his choice of course.
    Somehow I suspect people have other ways to find out about new music besides online shops and streaming services.

  4. #29
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheH View Post
    Why does it have to be that way? It will go the way the consumer wants it!
    You're kind of answering your own question here.

    Digital downloads are clearly the way things are going. I don't like it either, but railing against it is like spitting in the wind.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  5. #30
    Mod or rocker? Mocker. Frumious B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    Somehow I suspect people have other ways to find out about new music besides online shops and streaming services.
    There's YouTube of course, but only Google gets paid there. There's also illegal file sharing. Presumably Fripp would find those more objectionable than iTunes and Pandora. Bottom line is that Crimson seems to be done as a recording and touring entity and Fripp is more in the music selling business than he is in the music making business right now. The most valuable music he has to sell is that of King Crimson and Fripp seems to be doing a decent job of reselling that same music to his existing, aging fans with various gimmicks, remixes and so forth, but he isn't doing a very effective job of opening up emerging markets and introducing Crimson music to people who have never heard it before. A cornerstone of accomplishing this in 2013 is having your music available via iTunes, Pandora, etc.. Even The Beatles finally put their catalog on iTunes. Otherwise this music isn't going to have much lifetime beyond Fripp and existing Crimson fans and all those boxed sets will be clogging up landfills.

    Would you rather have 500 people who will give you $1 each or one person give you $500? Your bottom line is the same in both instances until somebody dies.
    "It was a cruel song, but fair."-Roger Waters

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    There's YouTube of course, but only Google gets paid there. There's also illegal file sharing. Presumably Fripp would find those more objectionable than iTunes and Pandora. Bottom line is that Crimson seems to be done as a recording and touring entity and Fripp is more in the music selling business than he is in the music making business right now. The most valuable music he has to sell is that of King Crimson and Fripp seems to be doing a decent job of reselling that same music to his existing, aging fans with various gimmicks, remixes and so forth, but he isn't doing a very effective job of opening up emerging markets and introducing Crimson music to people who have never heard it before. A cornerstone of accomplishing this in 2013 is having your music available via iTunes, Pandora, etc.. Even The Beatles finally put their catalog on iTunes. Otherwise this music isn't going to have much lifetime beyond Fripp and existing Crimson fans and all those boxed sets will be clogging up landfills.

    Would you rather have 500 people who will give you $1 each or one person give you $500? Your bottom line is the same in both instances until somebody dies.
    "Opening up emerging markets?" Some perspective here, people. C'mon man, Fripp is a musician, not Ben Bernanke or the head of the World Bank or IMF.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    King Crimson is all ready obscure and keeping the band's music out of the world's largest music retailer, keeping it off Pandora etc. can only increase that obscurity, not reduce it. If Fripp doesn't want anyone finding out about his music who doesn't all ready know about it then that's his choice of course.
    Well, based on the 40th anniversary sales, he's doing quite alright. If he prefers to keep a smaller but loyal following rather than giving away what he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting to reacquire to places that don't treat artists fairly, more power to him, frankly.

    There are plenty of ways to find out about Fripp and Crimson without iTunes.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    You're kind of answering your own question here.

    Digital downloads are clearly the way things are going. I don't like it either, but railing against it is like spitting in the wind.
    To repeat: Fripp is clearly not against digital downloads; what he is against is (a) heavily compressed versions of the music (the argument for that is becoming increasingly moot as download speeds make it possible to quickly and easily download high res music - I do it all the time) and (b) companies who sell his music, and take most of the money.

    Let's be clear about this. Fripp has been selling digital downloads at DGMLive for years.

  9. #34
    The eons are closing
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    Why should an artist trust a licenser (e.g. UMG) when:
    - The firm violates the actual contract daily by supplying digitized files to iTunes/Spotify/Grooveshark et al, when the licensing contract explictly says not to do so;
    - Once infringment occurs, cannot provide a clear statement of infringing sales in the most basic of accounting formats
    - Does not follow even the most basic of accounting standards with its sales/inventory/royalty statements for those items it does have a license for.

    Why should an artist trust a music delivery platform (e.g. iTunes / Spotify) when:
    - the delivery platform does not even confirm if the supplier of the music files actually has permission / authorization to provide these items.
    - makes take down requests an opaque and confusing process; and
    - once infringement has occurred, cannot provide a clear statement of infringing sales in the most basic of accounting formats

    So while IMO Fripp is inclined to embrace new technology (in fact, his goal has always been to provide DGM content in the latest / greatest audio formats); he is not inclined to embrace the technology as currently run by the music industry (and that's putting it politely).
    Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit

  10. #35
    Recently Resurrected zombywoof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    Otherwise this music isn't going to have much lifetime beyond Fripp and existing Crimson fans and all those boxed sets will be clogging up landfills.
    Let me take this opportunity to say, if anyone suddenly has the urge to toss out their Crimson boxed sets, I'm ready, willing, and able to take those burdens off of your hands and add them to my collection.

  11. #36
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    King Crimson is all ready obscure and keeping the band's music out of the world's largest music retailer, keeping it off Pandora etc. can only increase that obscurity, not reduce it.
    I think there is a point here, but that's a fine line to walk: demand reasonable compensation for your work by restricting commerce to those who work with you fairly, or allow your work to be under-valued in the hope there will be more exposure.

    The work of King Crimson is largely done. I don't think exposure for the band is all that important to him. Fripp's legacy project, as far as I can tell, is Guitar Craft, not King Crimson. I'm sure he'll set something up for the rights after he passes, and compensation at that point probably won't matter as much. It's been a sore point for long time, though. I doubt he'll give much ground while he still breathes.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  12. #37

    iTunes standard deal

    One reason artists might decide not to sell through iTunes is that Apple don't negotiate - you either accept their deal (which isn't great) or lump it. Robert Fripp is not the sort of person you dicate anything to, so that probably explains that.

    (Reported conversation between a hapless Virgin Records legal guy, desperate to secure Fripp's signature, and our man: "But Robert, this is our standard contract!" Fripp: "Then I suggest you offer it to your standard artist".)

  13. #38
    I'm a big apple fan and I'm willing to admit that iTunes is an atrocity

  14. #39
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    I believe there are strange meetings afoot at DGM World Headquarters to gain marketshare in new, exotic locales. DGM regional offices have just been opened in, first and foremost, Ulan Bator and, secondly, in certain Himalayan regions, beginning in Gangtok, the cosmopolitan metropolis that is awash in Yak Butter Money--through extensive market research and field studies, these places could possibly be very amenable to soundscapes, PorjeKcts, and recently unearthed Jamie Muir boots. But there's one drawback. Since Gangtok, flush as it is with Yak Butter riches, is full of audiophiles, there is one contractual stipulation: no downloads. Thereby, actual physical product has been shipped, first by horseback and camel traffic through the Khyber Pass, through the Indus Valley regions, and finally, via sherpas and well-trained but sadly unemployed and nearly starving Tibetan Monks, up the steep passes of the Himalayan mountains.

    The exact physical logistics vis-a-vis Ulan Bator as another untaped resource and market for Double Trio unison lines and dueling Warr guitar and Chapman Stick solos, are still being worked out at DGM WHQ. Given the cut throat nature of the Ulan Bator market place (and it is nothing else but cut throat-literally) Czar Singleton has dispatched Mark Thatcher, fresh from his attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea, to do contractual reconnaissance.

    Alas, Mark Thatcher has been delayed somewhat in his travels, taken back at all the celebrations and street parties that have sprung up all over in Brixton, Glasgow, Derry, Belfast, and Galway over the death of someone who was apparently very close to him.

  15. #40
    Hard to believe, but it looks like King Crimson is coming to the iTunes Store: https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/k...imson/id627204

  16. #41
    (aka timmybass69) timmy's Avatar
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    WOW. I guess Bob was holding out until he owned all the rights. Good for him.

  17. #42
    Sadly not on Amazon either. It's his choice but he's missing out on sales. Although I'm sure he's pretty much set for life.

  18. #43
    Member gearHed289's Avatar
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    It IS kind of a bummer. I've really been enjoying Amazon's cloud service - most CDs you buy are immediately available for download or for listening on your device of choice. But no Crim!

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by timmy View Post
    WOW. I guess Bob was holding out until he owned all the rights. Good for him.
    Absolutely.

  20. #45
    What evidence is there that KC is coming to iTunes? All I see on that page is a (very old) biography, a list of their top albums, and ONE track available for purchase b/c it's from a soundtrack. In short, exactly what iTunes has always displayed for King Crimson.

  21. #46
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olias View Post
    What evidence is there that KC is coming to iTunes? All I see on that page is a (very old) biography, a list of their top albums, and ONE track available for purchase b/c it's from a soundtrack. In short, exactly what iTunes has always displayed for King Crimson.
    There was a link posted on the official King Crimson-Robert Fripp facebook page.
    If you actually go into iTunes, there are Preorder buttons and a release date of September 30th.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    There was a link posted on the official King Crimson-Robert Fripp facebook page.
    If you actually go into iTunes, there are Preorder buttons and a release date of September 30th.
    Hmm, I guess you're right. Looks like they are coming to iTunes, or a few albums are at any rate.

  23. #48
    No doubt RF's diary covered the iTunes issue whenever he and DGM worked out the deal for these three to start with. Probably sometime over the summer, so we may see it published on the website shortly after new year's.

  24. #49
    I don't see the issue with I-tunes, the rate is pretty decent if you bear in mind you don't have the production costs and in our case the artists are on 50% deal on digital, so actually can make more on digital than physical. I can certainly see why an artist may have an issue with streaming etc and that's really a choice thing, but legal digital downloads I really can't see the issue, however and I say this as a big however, it only really works like this if you have a fairly recent deal, as we all have made digital rates much fairer, or if you own the rights outright. Many of the majors have tried to pay digital royalty rates based on the original royalty rate deal for physical which was often not good and if I was in that position I would hold out allowing it , until the rate was increased substantially.

  25. #50
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    Isn't it the year 2014? Just checking.
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