Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 101 to 119 of 119

Thread: John Weathers

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Find a metronome and try to set it to the time at the beginning of any passage and see where things end up....
    Try doing this with just about any jazz recording. I never understood jazz to be about metronomic rigidity.
    "Young man says you are what you eat, eat well."
    http://www.blissbomb.net/

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    That only means these guys, jazz-capable as they were, were not living in the US and did not have the same access to the music. But you are correct; DeJohnette wasn't a big influence on all those British drummers; but if you go across the pond, you'll see he was already establishing a name for himself, and was beginning to influence the next generation of jazz players in the US.

    Remember, the world was a much bigger place then, music wasn't as readily and broadly accessible, so the fact that a group of jazz-influenced British drummers hadn't really hipped to DeJohnette is just as likely due to that, at least in part. Although I bet if you asked Michael Giles if he knew who DeJohnette was when he recorded ItCotCK, I bet the answer would be: yes. I'm just supposing, of course, but it's a suspicion.

    None of what you're saying is anything i disagree with.Most of it is backing up what i was trying(probably poorly) to get at.

    There are plenty of reasons and players to bring up as being absent in Palmer's playing if someone is arguing he is heavily jazz infulenced or even jazz capable, before getting to Dejohnette, who hit the scene in the latter portions of the 60s.That's no dig at Dejohnette.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Perhaps, but his time was dreadful, and if he'd tried to play in any decent jazz band he'd have been turfed with the first tune. Bruford was more clearly informed by jazz and, of course, Ginger Baker. But lots of folks like to say they've been 'influenced" by jazz, but honestly, one of the last drummer's who could make that claim with any degree of credibility would be Palmer. If you want to swing, you need to have good time. Palmer did not. My usual reference? Coming out of his drum solo on Karn Evil 9 Part, First Impression, Part 2. He speeds up so much that when the band comes in it's like you can feel a brake being applied. Hard. Sorry, folks who like Palmer. For me he was always the weak link in ELP. I've had folks argue "he's orchestral," and that may be true (certainly truer to me than jazz), but it still doesn't matter. Ask any percussionist in an orchestra, and he/she will tell you how essential time is. I stopped paying attention to him after the '70s, and perhaps he took care of the problem, but it's one of the reasons that, as much as I love Emerson's playing on those first few ELP albums, Palmer often makes them unlistenable for me.
    I think you're taking that stance too far(though this is getting too off-topic really)I've dug and played with many jazz players who i didn't feel were great strict or steady timekeepers, but could certainly still swing.One of the generally agreed on greatest ever jazz drummers Tony Williams was not a particularly strong timekeeper by any standards jazz or rock- often rushing or dragging fills and patterns against the band's flow like palmer does, or randomly dropping the limb he was keeping time on out, and sometimes losing the beat momentarily with one limb when playing more complex figures with others.The latter was also because he was never the strongest of players from a four way independence point of view, but it never bothered me because he always had the overall feel down right and had plenty of strengths in other areas.

    The spectrum is no different in jazz drumming than for rock\latin(even if the general level is higher) and i say that as someone who has been drumming in all those contexts since i was a child.You get your flawless timekeepers(some who are great players, some with not much in the way of ideas) and your less solid players with enough going on in other areas to make up for that in the eyes of many.Palmer would fall into the latter category, a divisive player where strict timekeeping was never his strength(and enough to annoy some), but it certainly wasn't dreadful, just unsteady at times.Dreadful timekeepers won't last in many groups regardless of genre.

  4. #104
    (not his real name) no.nine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    If you want to swing, you need to have good time. Palmer did not. My usual reference? Coming out of his drum solo on Karn Evil 9 Part, First Impression, Part 2. He speeds up so much that when the band comes in it's like you can feel a brake being applied. Hard.
    I have to reply to this, and forgive me for quoting myself from another thread but I just don't feel like typing it all again.

    Quote Originally Posted by no.nine View Post
    OK, someone will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I recall a rehearsal video clip where Keith shows Carl how he wants him to speed up during the "gypsy queen" section and then slow back down again. Carl's response is something to the effect of "I'll try, I think I can do that". The fact that this tempo shifting occurs in the same spots even during live performances certainly suggests it was deliberate.

    I don't deny that Palmer had a tendency to speed up, but this often-cited example appears to be incorrect.
    I want to add that I'm in the camp that agrees his timing has issues but that ultimately it doesn't hurt the music. Rather, it helps the music to feel exciting to me. I will say, though, that his hi-hat playing is often pretty stiff. So no, he's not a perfect player but he still has other strengths which IMO absolutely do bring life and excitement to the music.
    "I tah dah nur!" - Ike

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Prehensile Pencil View Post
    To my ears, JW's drumming is not as simplistic or outright funky as some here have noted. His syncopation on those Giant albums was mostly sublime, often utilizing patterns where he'd open the hi-hat, or play a set of unaccompanied accents , in truly unique form. The drum track to songs like "Give It Back" and "So Sincere" are outright bizarre concepts in themselves, and when he did go batshit in the studio ("The Boys In The Band", "Cogs In Cogs" etc.) his movent around the rest of the group was a case study in chance-taking that worked. No-one else on this planet would have played the guitar solo section of "His Last Voyage" anywhere near that organically, simultaneously leaving space whilst propitiously taking it up. To top it off, some truly strange bass drum strikes, as in the keyboard refrain of "Two Weeks In Spain", or calculatingly "late" cymbal crashes ("The Advent Of Panurge") were downright innovative.
    Okay, okay, I get it already. Took me a while.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by no.nine View Post
    I have to reply to this, and forgive me for quoting myself from another thread but I just don't feel like typing it all again.
    Thanks...I did not know that....but it still doesn't change that his time overall sucks, that was always just the biggest example; his time is weak on pretty much everything he did with ELP.

    I want to add that I'm in the camp that agrees his timing has issues but that ultimately it doesn't hurt the music. Rather, it helps the music to feel exciting to me. I will say, though, that his hi-hat playing is often pretty stiff. So no, he's not a perfect player but he still has other strengths which IMO absolutely do bring life and excitement to the music.
    To each their own, but as a musician who has had to play, on occasion, with drummers with bad time - and, in my early days, as a guitarist whose time needed considerable improvement - all I can tell you is it's hard to play with a guitarist, a keyboardist, a horn man, etc with bad time; it's brutal trying to play with a drummer with bad time. So when I hear one, all I can think of is how hard it must be to work with this guy.

    ...but thanks for the anecdotal correction; first I've heard of it, so many thanks! I'll not use it again

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Watanabe View Post
    I think you're taking that stance too far(though this is getting too off-topic really)I've dug and played with many jazz players who i didn't feel were great strict or steady timekeepers, but could certainly still swing.One of the generally agreed on greatest ever jazz drummers Tony Williams was not a particularly strong timekeeper by any standards jazz or rock- often rushing or dragging fills and patterns against the band's flow like palmer does, or randomly dropping the limb he was keeping time on out, and sometimes losing the beat momentarily with one limb when playing more complex figures with others.The latter was also because he was never the strongest of players from a four way independence point of view, but it never bothered me because he always had the overall feel down right and had plenty of strengths in other areas.
    I agree totally with you, you may be surprised to hear. Actually, a little fluctuation is what makes us human (and what makes Peart, as technically gifted as he is, always sound so stiff. The question is degree. Some drummers, though, like Jim Keltner, play so far behind the beat as to make it sound to some as if he's dragging, but he's not; he's giving it a relaxed vibe, whereas someone like Stewart Copeland, who tends to play right on top of the beat, makes it feel a little rushed but exciting.

    Guys like Steve Gadd do, indeed, fluctuate a little, but the key word is: little. A certain degree of rushing or pulling back can make the music feel laidback or exhilarating; too much just feels bad and is hard to play to. Palmer is, I'm afraid, just too much.

    But I am, actually, in agreement with you.

    The spectrum is no different in jazz drumming than for rock\latin(even if the general level is higher) and i say that as someone who has been drumming in all those contexts since i was a child.You get your flawless timekeepers(some who are great players, some with not much in the way of ideas) and your less solid players with enough going on in other areas to make up for that in the eyes of many.Palmer would fall into the latter category, a divisive player where strict timekeeping was never his strength(and enough to annoy some), but it certainly wasn't dreadful, just unsteady at times.Dreadful timekeepers won't last in many groups regardless of genre.[/QUOTE]

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickleback View Post
    Try doing this with just about any jazz recording. I never understood jazz to be about metronomic rigidity.
    See my last response; a little flex is human; too much flex makes it difficult to play with. When I say use a metronome, my point - and sorry if I was not clear about this before - is the degree, when it comes to Palmer.

    Hope that clarifies.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Watanabe View Post
    There are plenty of reasons and players to bring up as being absent in Palmer's playing if someone is arguing he is heavily jazz infulenced or even jazz capable, before getting to Dejohnette, who hit the scene in the latter portions of the 60s.That's no dig at Dejohnette.
    I know it was no dig; just sayin' that Jack hit the scene mid-'60s, as i documented earlier. Those Lloyd records sold big numbers, thrusting him (along with Jarrett) into the spotlight very early - and very quickly. I've no issue with your overall comments, only about the timing.
    Cheers!
    Jon

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    For me....You can keep the PERFECT METER...and the jazz ego.. (at least that the attitude of the players in my area, they would not dirty themselves on a prog band.. and they have let me know it...
    I'm not talking about perfect meter; I'm talking about good meter. As for the attitude of the jazz players in your area, that's way too bad, because many of the big names, while having a clear predilection for jazz, are simply music lovers - I spend a lot of time talking to many of them, and we don't just talk jazz (these days, in fact, we're talking a lot about grateful dead, but prog comes up just as often). So it's a shame; it's that kind of elitism that hurts the music, that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    I'd rather listen to Neil Peart, Carl Palmer, Keith Moon and John Weathers..... Any day and every day and any imperfections they may or may not carry. I've never noticed them. Music flows.... sometime the drums are out front and drive the rest of us, sometimes they follow and are used to fill the spot and make it interesting.. they can also become the focus of the music.... Sorry but the drama in jazz is just not there for me the way it is in progressive music.
    And that's fine. But I'm glad you've said that the drama lacking in jazz is for you; for me, as someone who listens to just about anything (not just jazz), I find drama can exist in any pretty much any genre of music. But clearly prog is your thing and that's cool. But whether the drums are higher in the mix or lower has nothing to do with time. Bruford's drums were often high in the mix with Yes, but his time was very good (not perfect). There are very few players who you could call perfect; but they've ot to be at a certain level of some base competencies: a drummer's got to have good time (well, really, everyone in a band should), while singers, violinists and other string instruments without frets need good intonation. These are base skills that are needed, when working in a band, as their lack makes the player's deficiencies all the more obvious.

    Just my opinion, of course, but there are plenty of musicians - jazz or otherwise (why do you think Steven Wilson plays with guys like Marco Minnemann, Chad Wackerman and, in PT, Gavin Harrison?) - who'd support that belief.

    But, when it comes to enjoying the music as a fan, absolutely to each their own...there is, after all, a reason(s) why Carl Palmer, for example, is so popular...

    The material we are working on covering as a tribute to this era and genre, has our drummer very busy reproducing the work of drummers like Peart, Bruford, Collins, Palmer, Bonnam, Weathers, Mason, Bozzio, Gadd & Purdie, Copeland, Thompson, along with various drummers for Jethro Tull, Focus and Atomic Rooster depending on the songs. His opinion is very high when he speaks of John Weathers.... and when he has an opinion about a drummers work I take his word for it.

    I hope we can do some of GG's material to John's liking. I hope he see's another generation taking up the torch. I hope the originals we write as a group are well recieved as well. There will always be those who will take notes and find fault I am sure.[/QUOTE]

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    Jazz seems more a form of music for the jazz musician. It has its small group of dedicated followers. Now as much as that may seem a slam.... I must say that I can appreciate its complexity at times, and I always tip my hat at the discipline it takes to perform. It takes a better musician than myself to play it well for sure I don't "jam" that's my weakness, if I don't learn a song I don't know my way around the neck well enough to just jam to the feel. Its the Jazz ego mentality that is flawed for me... certainly not the music and it takes away from the brilliance of the musicians when the musicians have to advertise it to others. "I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout what he's found" This is a thread about a really cool guy and one hell of a good drummer in the ground breaking days of this new form of Rock music.. we now call "progressive".. NOT a debate about Jazz Music, and who is or is not a precise drummer.. We've gone way of topic here... Or perhaps I am reading to much into this...
    I'm sorry for taking this off the rails, guys, but I need to answer this one more thing and I'll sto:

    1. It went off the rails when, in discussing Weathers, someone brought up Palmer as a pinnacle; I wanted to rebut, since I totally disagree (and with supportable reasons);
    2. Re DeJohnette, I simply wanted to correct the notion of when he emerged into the public eye.

    However, this talk about a "jazz ego"? Seriously, you talk about its "small but dedicated group of followers." Why, then are there so many successful jazz festivals around the world (hundreds, for sure; maybe even thousands), when the number of prog festivals can almost be counted on two hands? If you want to talk about "small but dedicated group of followers," you need to look in the mirror, CP; I'm a huge prog fan, too, but while jazz doesn't have the audience it had when it was the pop music of the day (up until the mid-'50s), I assure you its audience is far from small. How would you explain All About Jazz having had anywhere between half a million and a million unique visitors (not hits; that's different) each and every month (last year, the annual total was 7.8 million)?

    Size does not matter, though, so I am not using those numbers to say jazz is better than anything else.....and as per a previous reply, a great many of the artists I speak with who are largely jazz players, listen to and love all kinds of music outside its borders. For most of them, it's all music, and they love it all.

    If you are talking about "musicians advertizing to others" when the solo, jazz may have been, to some extent, a competitive sport when bebop emerged, but this idea that all jazzers are about chops and style over substance, you've just not been hearing the right folks. Bill Frisell, for example, is a player who never sacrifices the meaning of a tune to allow for his own virtuosity; ditto vibraphonist Joe Locke, one of the most melodic cats around. There are many, many more.

    If there's a "jazz ego," it's something not shared by most of the good ones.

    Ok, folks, I'm done.

    John Weathers was a motherfucker with Giant, giving them the balls they needed to balance out their more esoteric nature.
    Best!
    John

  12. #112
    Well as long as someone is done with the Jazz....was not trying to strike a nerve just saying it like I see it. You have good points.. And I must say your last sentence sums up the John Weathers topic quite well.... A little tough to quote it and put it in print, but to the point.

    It seems the rest of all this is a debate I'd love to be a small part of, if I had the time and it was really worth ANYTHING....I think many of us have good points.... but who really cares. Perhaps in another life.

    I set the Gentle Giant aside today we have our set choices for now. Playing the Game, and if our keyboardist can finish it.... "I Lost My Head"
    I find myself going over what Focus material I have around here... I think we might add "Birth" to the lists..... that's a fun song. and not often heard anywhere.

    If your a fan, listen to an old prog recording today..... it'll do you good. If your a musician try and learn a new trick! It keeps you young.

    Randy

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    Well as long as someone is done with the Jazz....was not trying to strike a nerve just saying it like I see it. You have good points.. And I must say your last sentence sums up the John Weathers topic quite well.... A little tough to quote it and put it in print, but to the point.
    Done intentionally to protect my writing for copyright reason

    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    It seems the rest of all this is a debate I'd love to be a small part of, if I had the time and it was really worth ANYTHING....I think many of us have good points.... but who really cares. Perhaps in another life.
    That's a little easy out, don't you think? I mean, I'm sorry for participating in derailing the thread, but clearly people do really care, otherwise they'd not engage here or in any of the many threads on this forum, no? I know I do


    Quote Originally Posted by Classic Progressive View Post
    If your a fan, listen to an old prog recording today..... it'll do you good. If your a musician try and learn a new trick! It keeps you young.
    On that we agree. One of the things I've been noticing, especially in jazz but elsewhere too, is that the players who don't rest on laurels and continue to try and move forward with their music seem to really just keep on until they can't keep on no mo'. I look at artists like Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Pat Metheny and others (just picking guitarists for convenience), and they've in many ways never been busier with more projects than they are now, even as they are in or fast approaching their 60s.

    For me, it's actually very encouraging. I feel the same way about the writing I'm doing. I honestly don't see myself stopping what I'm doing until something forces me to...and hopefully doing this will help prevent it from actually happening.
    Cheers!
    John

  14. #114

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post

    Hope that clarifies.
    Nope. Who decides what is too much or too little flex?
    "Young man says you are what you eat, eat well."
    http://www.blissbomb.net/

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickleback View Post
    Nope. Who decides what is too much or too little flex?
    Whoever has to play with the guy.

  17. #117
    Member No Pride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Posts
    137
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickleback View Post
    Nope. Who decides what is too much or too little flex?
    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    Whoever has to play with the guy.
    Funny because it's true.

    Hey, there's no gauge to measure this by. Time/tempo is a deep subject. You can play in back, in front or in the middle of the beat while keeping the tempo steady. Trouble is, sometimes when a drummer is playing in back or in front, the bass player and/or other players might not "get" that that's his intent and they'll try to lock in to where he's at... and the whole tempo starts to drag (if he's playing in back) or rush (if he's playing in front).

    As far as tempo elasticity is concerened: personally I don't expect or even necessarily want metronomic time from anybody, but I want them to understand "the big picture." What that means is that the general tempo of the tune should always be somewhere in the back of one's mind and should not be forgotten long enough to stray too far away from it. Some grooves that feel good in one tempo don't feel so good a couple of notches higher or lower on the metronome.

  18. #118
    Yeah, it's really about feel- for the players and the listener. You can mess with the tempo and it feels right, and you can do it and it feels wrong. Conversely, there are guys that have millisecond precision that feel amazing, and those that do that feel terrible. I actually think Carl went too far back the other way- his timing is precise now, but he feels horribly stiff because I personally don't think he has dynamics. I miss the Carl of the first three ELP albums. That dude swung. He's an amazingly nice guy and he has chops I'll never have in this lifetime. But I really don't care for his playing post Trilogy. It's just a taste thing. John Weathers had X factor.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickleback View Post
    Nope. Who decides what is too much or too little flex?
    It's not empirical, it's absolutely a feel thing, but I guess all I can say is this: I've never heard anyone criticize Steve Gadd, Jim Keltner or Elvin Jones for having minor temporal fluctuations, but I'm not the only person (though it does seem so around here) who, over the years, has criticized Carl Palmer's time.

    Sorry, can't be more definitive; maybe a drummer could pipe in and talk about how many clicks is too much, but I cannot quantify it for ya. What I do know is that when you are comparing the first three drummers i mentioned with the last one, we are talking substantial differences.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •