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Thread: First Flower King Remasters Out Today

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRS View Post
    The scenes outside Inside Out headquarters in Germany were particularly violent. Thomas Waber had to be rushed out via a back door and went into hiding for several months. Still Roine refused to redo them!!

    It's even somewhat misleading to call these 'remixes' since they seem to be partial re-recordings. Above it was mentioned that they couldn't hear Hasse on the original mix of "Rhythm of the Sea" - that's because he wasn't on it, this appears to be added in. Same of course with "The Road Back Home" now it has Hasse and Roine trading verses. A Remix should still only include the original ingredients of the recipe but in adjusted degrees. This is adding ingredients and removing others.

    But regarding "Devil's Playground" 2017 remix. It is 6 minutes shorter than the original and the section that is removed is one of the very best passages in all of Flower Kings catalog. I'm talking about the part at about 13:30 where it reprises part of the "Uphill" section of "The Truth Will Set You Free" this time in instrumental form. And it is done in such an achingly beautiful manner. It's absolutely gorgeous and painfully emotional. For the remix this section was deemed expendable.

    But as bad as that change is, I didn't even know about it until later because something happens much earlier in the song that when I first heard it I ejected the CD from my car player. I'm assuming everyone knows the song - the first 3 plus minutes are a slow dramatic build up of ever increasing tension, with some slight release only to build the tension more. This happens very gradually and deliberately. In the original right before it goes into the main riff and the chaos breaks out there is sort of a machine sound that changes into this low growl and then the riff kicks in. It's magnificently and perfectly done. In the remix this transition moment is changed into a cartoon villain voice booming out "THIS IS HOW YOU RAISE THE CAIN!!!" It is absolutely ridiculous. I just can't believe that someone wouldn't tell him this is a terrible choice.

    And I'll just mention one other thing about the UtF remix. He selected the wrong files for "Vox Humana" and "Grand Old World". He choose the "Road Back Home" 2007 remix versions instead of remastering the original versions. They are quite different versions. For "Vox Humana" it is not so bad but that version of "Grand Old World" removes the intro with "The Truth" marimba theme reprised played in a different key. That part was important to unite the double album sides and the album flow is not as good without it.

    I know I know I'm veering into obsessive fandom here but it does bother me. I really have no problem with remastered versions and the remastered songs are good. But I beg Roine please don't remix anymore! None of the songs are improved by it and I think he is just TOO close to these songs and can't see the forest for the trees. In some cases he can't see what made these songs great to begin with. Probably because he is obsessed on mastering and production nuances instead of the actual emotion and feel of the songs. In the Tangent thread there is an interview with Andy Tillison who says he never listens to his albums after he is done with them. He has expanded on this before and it is for that exact reason, because he would always find faults and become consumed by the could have should have done it this way thoughts. I'm afraid Roine has fallen into this trap. But there is no need to! The originals sound just fine as they are! Trust the fan reactions as to why we think they are classics.
    I'm not such a big TFK fan but I really like this album so would have been bothered like you at these changes. Glad I stuck to the original then.

    You know what, after all these years, I had never noticed the Truth Will Set You Free reprise at 13'30 in Playground!!!
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  2. #27
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Eventually we’re all going to own at least two copies of every album!!
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  3. #28
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    You are speaking gibberish. There is no information beyond bit 16 on the multi-track. Upconverting to 24 bit is not going to create any. Upsampling either.
    I'm speaking of taking the individual lead guitar track, individual hammond organ track, individual lead vocal track, et cetera, et cetera and mixing them all to a larger canvas. Like a dozen tributaries merging into a larger rather than smaller river. More water is going to flow through the larger river. At that final stage, more information is being preserved, which would otherwise be lost to digital truncation. As the audio waveform becomes more complex due to the mixing process, there's far more information to be lost to truncation. It's not a matter of creating information not already there. The vast majority of 80s digital recordings were made to 16/44.1 multi-track digital recorders. There were 20bit 96KHz machines, but they were out of reach for most. The vinyl versions of most of those recordings sounded much better than the CD versions. Because the CD versions were mixed and mastered to 16/44.1, a smaller canvas than the vinyl and cassette versions.
    Last edited by progmatist; 05-30-2022 at 03:48 PM.
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  4. #29
    Member Czyszy's Avatar
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    Personally, I would love to hear a revamped version of Psycedelic Postcard (Flower Power), with different, less obnoxious, effects on the vocals and a clearer drum mix.

  5. #30
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czyszy View Post
    Personally, I would love to hear a revamped version of Psycedelic Postcard (Flower Power), with different, less obnoxious, effects on the vocals and a clearer drum mix.
    I do hope they do a good job of Flower Power, that's the only one I'm interested in replacing. The rest of them are fine to me, and from the description above, I think I made the right call in hanging on to them!
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  6. #31
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czyszy View Post
    Personally, I would love to hear a revamped version of Psycedelic Postcard (Flower Power), with different, less obnoxious, effects on the vocals and a clearer drum mix.
    I’m looking forward to that entire album. Is it five vinyl discs?
    The older I get, the better I was.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    I do hope they do a good job of Flower Power, that's the only one I'm interested in replacing. The rest of them are fine to me, and from the description above, I think I made the right call in hanging on to them!
    Agree.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  8. #33
    Member LASERCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    I'm speaking of taking the individual lead guitar track, individual hammond organ track, individual lead vocal track, et cetera, et cetera and mixing them all to a larger canvas. Like a dozen tributaries merging into a larger rather than smaller river. More water is going to flow through the larger river. At that final stage, more information is being preserved, which would otherwise be lost to digital truncation. It's not a matter of creating information not already there. The vast majority of 80s digital recordings were made to 16/44.1 multi-track digital recorders. There were 20bit 96KHz machines, but they were out of reach for most. The vinyl versions of most of those recordings sounded much better than the CD versions. Because the CD versions were mixed and mastered to 16/44.1, a smaller canvas than the vinyl and cassette versions.
    You have, IMHO, a bizarre interpretation of the recording, mixing and mastering process. You can use whatever descriptive euphemisms you like but it has nothing to do with taking a session with each individual track recorded at 16/44.1 and trying to create more musical information in said track by upconverting it to 24/96. The baby has already been thrown out with the bath water.

  9. #34
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    You have, IMHO, a bizarre interpretation of the recording, mixing and mastering process. You can use whatever descriptive euphemisms you like but it has nothing to do with taking a session with each individual track recorded at 16/44.1 and trying to create more musical information in said track by upconverting it to 24/96. The baby has already been thrown out with the bath water.
    The old Yamaha DX7's oscillators produced pure sine waves. When these 6 sine waves modulated each other, the resulting waveform was highly complex indeed. The individual instrument tracks, even when recorded in 24/96 contain far less information than when combined into a highly complex waveform.

    EDIT: It's absolutely true when instrument tracks are upsampled as a prerequisite, the only thing happening is trailing zeros are added. When the tracks combine into a highly complex waveform, those zeros get filled in with actual numbers. Particularly when higher resolution effects, like reverb are applied.

    A particularly bad sounding vinyl record is the 1984 reissue of The Enid In the Regions of Summer Stars. They did the polar opposite. They took the 8 track analog tape, mixed and mastered it to 16/44.1. Then transferred that master directly to the vinyl record. The end result is the record sounds exactly like the CD, with the added bonus of surface noise.

    EDIT #2: When Journey Greatest hits was made available as a 24/96 Hi-Res download, it was constructed from 16 bit source material. HDTracks under its current ownership conceals that fact, but under its previous US ownership, they were up front about it. It sounds very much like one would expect from a true 24/96 recording. Had it not, I would've demanded a refund. I shared your skepticism when I bought it, and was pleased when it turned out to be a good purchase. I speak from experience, not pure conjecture, and was offering a possible explanation why. If digital audio was that cut and dry, there would be no debate over whether it's even possible for humans to perceive quality improvement above the CD format. Or whether the resurgence of vinyl is nothing more than a hipster fad.
    Last edited by progmatist; 05-31-2022 at 12:55 AM.
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  10. #35
    Listening to these remasters just underlines for me how these albums were the golden age of Tomas Bodin's contributions to the FK sound.
    No matter what anyone says, you are the decider of how you will listen to music.

  11. #36
    Occipital Provocatee Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    I just saw a Facebook comment from Roine that Unfold will be coming out around the end of the year. So another remix/remaster? Kinda crazy.....
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  12. #37
    I liked some of the remixes on the reissue of UTF from a few years ago. But I didn’t realize that Devil’s Playground had been changed so drastically.
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  13. #38
    Occipital Provocatee Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    I streamed World of Adventures. I still dislike the snare tone (can't really "fix" that), but the clarity is great and the lower stuff (bass, kick drum, pedals) seems heftier. Ill see what the verdict is on Stardust and Flour Pour on vinyl...certainly pricey.
    If Roine has access to individually mic'ed drum tracks then replacing the snare with a different sound is actually pretty easy as there is software available that will do that. But he probably would disagree about it needing to be changed. Didn't he have a specific snare drum that he insisted Jaime use on the first few albums?
    <sig out of order>

  14. #39
    Member Rajaz's Avatar
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    Roine himself does his own "unpacking" of the reissues:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkqg...cY-izg&index=3

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajaz View Post
    Roine himself does his own "unpacking" of the reissues:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkqg...cY-izg&index=3
    I love Roine. The gold vinyl looks sweet.
    Last edited by Aquatarkus; 06-01-2022 at 02:49 PM.

  16. #41
    Member Gerhard's Avatar
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    Hello, for consumer awareness, I ordered the colored vinyl versions of both releases (Back in the World and Retropolis) from Roine's website, and the total with shipping to US came to about $75 USD, which doesn't seem too bad. I'm guessing they'll take awhile to get here from Sweden.

    https://www.roinestolt.com/

    Another option for US buyers is ImportCD's store on ebay, where you can buy the black vinyl versions (I assume) for around $62 for both. They are listed at $38.58 each, but you get 20% off for orders over $65 right now. Ebay will add your state/local sales tax, but shipping is free, and usually pretty fast, from my experience.

  17. #42
    Member Gerhard's Avatar
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    19 seconds into the "unboxing" video linked above Roine mentions these releases are "remastered, 24 bit 96"...

    On Roine's website, if you click on either release, it says, "A new fully analogue 24 bit/96 khz remaster - 3 songs remixed 2022".

    Make of that what you will.

  18. #43
    Member BarryLI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Eventually we’re all going to own at least two copies of every album!!
    Unless you're a Tull fan, then it's a half dozen.

  19. #44
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    ^ Dude, they're not going to stop until every album has it's own shelf in your listening room.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by yesstiles View Post
    Does Laser only have the CD reissues and not the LPs?
    We sold out of the vinyl. More copies on the way.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Hello, for consumer awareness, I ordered the colored vinyl versions of both releases (Back in the World and Retropolis) from Roine's website, and the total with shipping to US came to about $75 USD, which doesn't seem too bad. I'm guessing they'll take awhile to get here from Sweden.

    https://www.roinestolt.com/

    Another option for US buyers is ImportCD's store on ebay, where you can buy the black vinyl versions (I assume) for around $62 for both. They are listed at $38.58 each, but you get 20% off for orders over $65 right now. Ebay will add your state/local sales tax, but shipping is free, and usually pretty fast, from my experience.
    Thanks for that info! Now to crunch numbers and see which is a better deal.
    JPC.DE has great prices on these too. All four multi-LP sets shipped to USA for roughly $30 each altogether.

  22. #47
    I don't have time to read through this whole thread but can someone answer this please? I understands the vinyl comes with a download card/link. Is the download MP3 or is it the actual 24/96 high resolution version of the album?

    I was hoping, since these ate being remastered in 24/96, that they'd make those available as standalone purchasable digital downloads. So I don't do vinyl, the cost of buying the vinyl to get the downloads seems excessive.

    Anyway, first thing first: is the download high res files or (ugh) MP3?
    Thanks, in advance.
    EDIT: Never mind. Last time I looked at my usual shops they weren't available in high res but are now, and if you subscribe to their newsletter you can get 20% off the $20.99 cost per high res album (and yes, at 24/96j.
    John Kelman
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  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    I don't have time to read through this whole thread but can someone answer this please? I understands the vinyl comes with a download card/link. Is the download MP3 or is it the actual 24/96 high resolution version of the album?

    I was hoping, since these ate being remastered in 24/96, that they'd make those available as standalone purchasable digital downloads. So I don't do vinyl, the cost of buying the vinyl to get the downloads seems excessive.

    Anyway, first thing first: is the download high res files or (ugh) MP3?
    Thanks, in advance.
    EDIT: Never mind. Last time I looked at my usual shops they weren't available in high res but are now, and if you subscribe to their newsletter you can get 20% off the $20.99 cost per high res album (and yes, at 24/96j.
    The Lp’s come with Cd’s.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by yesstiles View Post
    The Lp’s come with Cd’s.
    I thought they also ca,e with download cards/links. Anyway, like I said, mystery solved and I've purchased/downloaded the two albums in 24/96 resolution from HDTracks.com.
    John Kelman
    Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
    Freelance writer/photographer

  25. #50
    随缘 SRS's Avatar
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    not sure about these remasters either now. Anyone else hearing a background noise/hiss during parts? I've got the CD versions -
    Can someone check "Big Puzzle" in particular at about the 6:05 mark and compare to original?

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