Has the general cultural/critical stigma against prog rock ended?

[Dave (in MA)]

When progarchives was taken off line by hackers a few years ago, I suspected the Russian hackers responsible were confusing progressive rock with progressive politics.

It's at least as likely they were just sick and tired of the animated GIFs people keep using in their sigs.

[MJBrady]

I never cared what the musical trends were in any era, and I imagine most of the true prog fans at this site and everywhere for that matter, didn't either. That was what we craved, the non-commercial, freedom of invention, the odd, the epic, the unpredictable, ambitious, virtuosic, the adventurous, the surprise, the fantastic. As soon as an artist would compromise, thats when that artist would lose some credibility. ASIA is a perfect example. As is a lot of what is called Neo-Prog(sorry folks).

As for now, seeing as "progrock" has made a significant comeback since the 60's and 70's. It's a known genre now, much like classical, jazz, rock, blues, reggae, country, zydeco, etal.

[Trane]

Who knows …. or frankly, in my case, who cares. Always rather liked being ‘part’ of something that was uncool and excoriated by critics, themselves unencumbered by actual creativity. I recall being horrified by the popularity of The Wall and solo Phil Colins. Figured it would be the end of both bands.

Yup, in some ways, I'd have hated that my hick neighbour has the same musical tastes that I have.
Somewhere down the line, I'd end up doubting about moi.

Do they ever play (on any of the local stations you've listened to) Kansas, or Boston? How about Styx? Is there an audience for that music in your neck of the woods, even aside from radio - do people know those bands at all?

Wellllll, it does help that this Classic 21 radio is state-owned....

And yessssss on all counts for the bands you mention (and plenty more), with The Eagles being most force-fed (not a fan) for the 20 years of its existence... though it is kind of a weird mix, because of the local "CanCon" (or( BelCon, in this case), where youy have plenty of french singer-songwroters in the playmist

Krautrock was EXTREMELY unfashionable; read The Wire before about 1995.

Well, now I know I've got the good reading habits (never actually picked that mag, though I did hesitate)

It's at least as likely they were just sick and tired of the animated GIFs people keep using in their sigs.

Yup and those useless playlist ... One would totally wear down the scroll roller of your mouse when perusing PA.

Some two-liners posts were about 1/25th of the post, as the 24/25th were their sigs.

[starless and bible black]

To answer the question, 'Has The Stigma against Prog Rock Ended', I say it has. The rise of the internet, the admissions of Yes, Genesis & Rush into The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, the rise of Prog Metal with Dream Theater, Opeth (and others) are all contributing factors.

[Dana5140]

Moreover, the larger cultural context has changed. The critics who savaged prog in the late '70s were part of a NYC/London literary culture that valued rock for "authenticity" in representing working-class values, or some such nonsense. More than anything, prog irritated those critics because of its aspirational nature. To those critics, rock musicians are supposed to "know their place" and keeping on bashing those same three chords into infinity and sing about what those snobs think working class people think about (or at least, what they're "supposed" to think about). Such criticism is, itself, the height of cultural pretention and aspirationalism.

This is what Bill Martin referred to as the "blues orthodoxy." It was assumed prog relied on technical virtuosity, which was seen as "European" and thus not in line with American blue-collar values. Funny thing now is, with the hindsight of time, how compressed it all was- from prog appearing to just 5 years later punk showing up. Punk was authentic and prog was "not."

We've reached a point where a band like Magma is now seen as both influential and exciting, long past the days when they were dismissed out of hand for the Zeuhl mythology and Christian's falsetto. Now their music is used on Killing Eve, and Vander is receiving honors for his music. Rush, more than Yes, Genesis or KC, is seen as the icon band of prog (probably due to the Neil Peart love). And I agree with Steve; Krautrock was always a bit suspect- but today, now Can is an icon.

[wiz_d_kidd]

Calling it a "stigma" is a little overboard. I think it's more a case of people simply shying away from the unfamiliar, and instead, embracing the popular and familiar. Kinda like when you go to a foreign restaurant and choose a recognizable pasta dish instead of "braised octopus with durian salsa". Most people are not adventurous enough. Even if someone at your table orders it and enjoys it, your reaction (not being adventurous) might be "Eh, it doesn't sound good to me. I'll pass". Contrast that with foie gras, which does often carry a "stigma" (i.e. a strong feeling of disapproval or reproach) because of the way that ducks (or geese) are treated.

[Mascodagama]

I think it's partly a generational thing. A lot of those who came up in my generation and are in their fifties now still despise prog because it was obligatory to do so during their formative years, and they've seen no reason to examine or change those attitudes.

Younger generations seem to be more relaxed, maybe because music is no longer an arena of youth tribalism in the way it used to be, and it's not necessary to define yourself by what you despise as much as by what you love. And pop culture generally has embraced eclecticism not just in a self-consciously postmodern sense but as part of its general practices. We probably owe a bit of that to hip hop and its magpie-like approach of taking a sample from anywhere if it works. If Jay-Z and Kanye can sample Orchestra Njervudarov, just how square can prog be...?

[Enidi]

I live in a "hicksville" kind of town where people are generally like that. I'm not saying that their personal preferences in music are bad. I'm merely pointing out that they are all alike..and socially leading down one path.

Bands like Led Zeppelin, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Bon Jovi, etc....is like one path they follow. In the early 70s it was quite different. In South Jersey people generally loved ELP, Genesis, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and you were more likely then to strike up a friendship through that common interest.

People's initial reaction in South Jersey today would be.. something like this: "ELP ..that sounds like "Circus Music" or "King Crimson..that sounds like noise"

This is mainly a generation of folks ranging anywhere from age 40 to age 50. Most people in the South Jersey area focus their attention on "Modern Country" or "Swamp Rock" from the 60s such as CCR.

The younger generation seems to accept Prog and is open to it...further downloading it out of curiosity or personal interest. That's basically the way it's been in South Jersey over the last 30 years. I'm not offended by all the people who dislike it nor do I allow it to get on my last nerve. I generally ignore it or just don't give it a lot of thought. ...but it's just a fact that people around here are that way.

[Steve983]

I can only talk from personal experience. Here in the UK in the late 70's it was suddenly like the 'night of the long knives' against in particular Prog music. It wasn't just stigma or cultural bias or whatever you want to call it, it was pure hatred - down with the old guard and in with punk and new wave. John Peel personified this with his sudden about turn of musical tastes and dislike of the music he was promoting just a few short years before. This bias from the media lasted all through the 80's and into the 90's before it eventually began to soften. The sad thing is that many people were exposed to this 'received wisdom' for years and turned their nose up at Prog without ever hearing any of it.

[Zappathustra]

A combination of this...

But the biggest piece of the stigma being removed is just because 95% of music listeners today have no idea what prog is/was and so have no reason to hate upon it. I talk to my college students about bands and none know a single thing about prog.

this...

Moreover, the larger cultural context has changed. The critics who savaged prog in the late '70s were part of a NYC/London literary culture that valued rock for "authenticity" in representing working-class values, or some such nonsense...To the degree such critiques still exist, they've moved on to focusing on hip-hop as the "working class cultural ideal." Prog doesn't even exist in that atmosphere. But, mostly, music plays a different, less charged, role in our culture now.

and this

I think it's partly a generational thing. A lot of those who came up in my generation and are in their fifties now still despise prog because it was obligatory to do so during their formative years, and they've seen no reason to examine or change those attitudes.

Rock music in its entirety has receded as a cultural medium of youthful expression. The stigma is still there, bit it is less apparent because the scale is diminished. Big internet sites like Pitchfork still treat prog like garbage.

[Piskie]

^^^ That is exactly my reading - Steve 983. I was fervently into punk (The Jam, Clash etc) but felt quite torn at times. The old favourites re-asserted themselves some years later!

[Steve983]

^^^ That is exactly my reading - Steve 983. I was fervently into punk (The Jam, Clash etc) but felt quite torn at times. The old favourites re-asserted themselves some years later!

Me too, I was buying Stranglers, Buzzcocks & Jam LP's while also buying Yes, Rush & Genesis - it didn't take long before I realised the latter were the real deal!

[progmatist]

It's at least as likely they were just sick and tired of the animated GIFs people keep using in their sigs.

That's too logical an assumption. Trolls are typically not the sharpest notes on the piano. I used to know a pre-internet troll in the early 90s. He made a poster in the DOS based program Printmaster which read, and I quote: "You think you no but you don't no s***." He proudly showed it to me and asked me what I thought. I said quite simply, "You misspelled 'know.' It's k-n-o-w." The sound of his bubble bursting was palpable.

[moecurlythanu]

^ I've had similar encounters online with people of a certain political persuasion. You can probably guess which.

[rael74]

There has definitely been a shift in acceptance over the last ten years or so.
For instance, the UK's leading (left-leaning) newspaper The Guardian has even praised them. These are essentially the same self-serving, smug hypocrites who used to embody the venom of the NME Music paper. Somehow, and I'm not sure why, it became (in their eyes 'acceptable' to like prog again)

On a wider point, most (young) people today would have no idea what we are talking about. I am a school-teacher and if I asked many of the kids I teach what their favourite 'band' is, most would not know what a 'band' actually was. Music is just not an aspect of their lives in the way it was ours.

HOWEVER! Those few that are actually into music don't differentiate the eras in the way older people do. They will happily reference Micheal Jackson next to Pink Floyd next to Metallica as all being 'great old music'. (Which it is) There is definitely a small number of kids who definitely realise that the older music was better (regardless of genre) which, like I said, they don't seem to recognise.

I link all of this to the original post. I think that because there are generally fewer people (especially the under 30s) who are actually passionate about music, the old tribal divides that WE all grew up with have largely gone. Whether or not that's actually a good thing, is a whole other debate.

[moecurlythanu]

^ I completely agree.

[boilk]

On a wider point, most (young) people today would have no idea what we are talking about. I am a school-teacher and if I asked many of the kids I teach what their favourite 'band' is, most would not know what a 'band' actually was. Music is just not an aspect of their lives in the way it was ours.

I know that kids don't hold music in the same high regard anymore, but to not even know what a band is? Wow.

Neil

[IMWeasel]

Here's a fun anecdote -- I was at a brewery watching a friend of mine's surf rock side band, and a person in their teens or early 20s at the most in a Yes tshirt bought one of my friend's records....so I'd say thats a good indication things have changed some. lol. I never saw a Yes tshirt in the wild when I was that age, but I was the kid that would wear one lol

[Baribrotzer]

To the degree such critiques still exist, they've moved on to focusing on hip-hop as the "working class cultural ideal." Prog doesn't even exist in that atmosphere.

A few funny things about that:

• Guys who actually create hip-hop are total musical pack-rats - they'll listen to anything in search of a few killer seconds that they can loop to be yammered over. They don't dismiss prog, because they don't dismiss anything.
• A certain number of the popular YT genre of reaction videos have hip-hop guys (or at least that's what they appear to be) listening to prog, often for the first time. One of them was flabbergasted by Rush making that much music with just three guys (I won't repeat what he said). Another, Jamel AKA Jamal, was completely blown away by "Close to the Edge", and declared it "the best song ever".
• It occurs to me that they've been raised on music that's all about extreme minimalism: It could be said to be about how little you can have there, and still be perceived as music of a sort. Sometimes, it's just a compelling beat, a voice shouting out tough-guy street poetry, and one or two borrowed licks. Even when there's a lot of sound, usually most of it just repeats. So when they hear four or five guys trying to sound like a whole symphony orchestra, the effect is overwhelming - it's Epic Soundtrack Rock, and they're floored by it.

[miamiscot]

The stigma is indeed over!!! Prog is cool again.

[Progatron]

Interesting discussion. Something I've noticed shift over the years is young people's attitude and exposure to any kind of rock music, or indeed anything that isn't hip-hop or whatever other modern computer-assembled productions they listen to. A couple of years ago, one of the new young hires at work was a 19 year-old rap fanatic who spent all his time listening to rap either on headphones or on his little bluetooth speaker. He knew all about these guys (none of whom I'd ever heard of)... their lives, their record labels, their association with other rappers, etc. It was quite similar to how I was at 19, just about rap instead. His attitude towards the music I played (which from my perspective was a broad range, from prog to jazz to metal to classic rock) was to lump it all into one category: Not Rap. He neither liked nor disliked it; it was just something foreign to him that older guys like me and his dad probably listen to, and nothing at all to do with what he considered music. I could put on a seriously grooving rhythmic piece and it still wouldn't garner the slightest bit of interest in him, washing over him in the same way that algebra does with me. One day his eyes lit up and he came racing over because he thought I was listening to some different mix of one of the rap tracks he loved. But of course, I wasn't, I was listening to the furthest thing from rap (in my mind), Deep Purple's April. Turns out, one of his rap idols had sampled the string section and made a track out of it. He was stunned to know that it actually was a piece of orchestral music recorded in 1969. For all he did know about rap, he hadn't grasped the concept that much of what he was hearing was originally composed and recorded by someone else.

So I suspect that part of the reason prog may not have the stigma it once did is because it is gradually blending in with everything else in the general rock field for the newest generations. A handful of them will always discover it because they'll seek it out. But the vast majority won't see a difference between Topographic Oceans and Master Of Puppets. In fairness, I never saw the slightest difference in this kid's rap music, it all sounded identical to me.

[Mascodagama]

The stigma is indeed over!!! Prog is cool again.

True. I was always something of a magnet to the female sex, but I never got so much attention as I do now whilst promenading in my Brand X sweatshirt. The girls all wanna ask me if I knew Morris Pert.

[Dana5140]

There is a lot to unpack here. I have some thoughts to offer, based on my n-of-1 perspective related to my kids and stepkids. These kids and stepkids run from 37-44, so they are not kids, but adults.

1. My stepdaugher has a larger listening pool than all the others, mainly because her biological father exposed her to the kind of music we listen to- including a lot of John Zorn, other jazz and more out rock (but not prog). Her brother, who is 3 years younger, mainly listens to country blues since that is what he plays on guitar. He makes fun of me because I still buy CDs- but there is a point here. CDs, like LPs, are tangible, and until recently you could still go a store and see what they had by looking through hundreds of discs to find something interesting. Our Barnes and Noble just emptied their CD/DVD section 2 weeks ago, by the way.To do that online is just not possible- it is too time consuming and where can you go to do that anyway unless you are a cognoscenti and know about Wayside or Laser's Edge?
2. So my stepson just uses spotify to find those things he wants and then just lets it play.
3. My youngest son, who just turned 37 last week, is my hipster kid- he is into LPs, so spends time at used record shops, and is open to many genres, but mainly listens to r and b, with some modern rock stuff mixed in. He does this on his "fancy" stereo system, which is blue-toothed.
4. One 41 yo twin just puts spotify on, mainly soul and R&b. In his defense, he has a tough life- works from 6 to 6 as a teacher and coach, and has a disabled 4yo that requires a lot of attention. Music is just there to make the day nicer.
5. The other twin seems to listen mainly to classic rock, and also has a disabled kid (autistic here, as opposed to cerebral palsy for his niece.). It is just background and they are not completely engaging with it, but they also do not really watch much TV.

Progatron, what I take from your comment is that, in the case of the kid listening to rap, that's what he grew up with and that is what resonates and speaks to him. For my parents, it is Frank Sinatra and Barbra Streisand. For me, Jefferson Airplane, MC5, Magma, Mahavishnu- all coming from 1967-1975. Differetn strokes for different folks. And of course, different methods of delivery now from what we had. I spent hours in record stores. I had no internet to find new things, so I had to go look. I took chances. Now, there is tons of product, millions of delivery systems, and it is overwhelming. Why prog now? Because it is there and it has survived and what goes around comes around. Rappers have sampled prog for years. And look at Magma with Chassol.

For me, it is always a great day when someone sees my KC or Sun Ra or Magma t-shirt and says they know them. It happens a lot these days, even for Magma. In some cases, the internet can be your friend. There is a new Dune out and this leads to posts about Jodorowski's Dune and that leads to articles about Magma writing the music and that leads to Magma getting a listen.

[Digital_Man]

Here's a fun anecdote -- I was at a brewery watching a friend of mine's surf rock side band, and a person in their teens or early 20s at the most in a Yes tshirt bought one of my friend's records....so I'd say thats a good indication things have changed some. lol. I never saw a Yes tshirt in the wild when I was that age, but I was the kid that would wear one lol

There's definitely people in their teens and early 20's into Yes these days and who wear t shirts but they are few and far between. The last time I saw younger people wearing a Yes t-shirt was at a Jon Anderson concert but I suppose that doesn't really count. Otherwise, it's been several years.

As for the prog stigma I feel it's still there but not nearly as strong as it used to be. Some music critics and those who listen primarily to punk are probably still prejudiced against it but that's their loss.

[progmatist]

A few funny things about that:

• Guys who actually create hip-hop are total musical pack-rats - they'll listen to anything in search of a few killer seconds that they can loop to be yammered over. They don't dismiss prog, because they don't dismiss anything.
• A certain number of the popular YT genre of reaction videos have hip-hop guys (or at least that's what they appear to be) listening to prog, often for the first time. One of them was flabbergasted by Rush making that much music with just three guys (I won't repeat what he said). Another, Jamel AKA Jamal, was completely blown away by "Close to the Edge", and declared it "the best song ever".
• It occurs to me that they've been raised on music that's all about extreme minimalism: It could be said to be about how little you can have there, and still be perceived as music of a sort. Sometimes, it's just a compelling beat, a voice shouting out tough-guy street poetry, and one or two borrowed licks. Even when there's a lot of sound, usually most of it just repeats. So when they hear four or five guys trying to sound like a whole symphony orchestra, the effect is overwhelming - it's Epic Soundtrack Rock, and they're floored by it.

Hip Hop artists also own the most massive vinyl collections. Quest Love, who just won the Oscar for best documentary owns literally hundreds of thousands of vinyl records.