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Thread: Today: 40th Anniversary of KCís Discipline

  1. #26
    Member Kcrimso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I first got this when it was an auto-shipment from Columbia House that I decided to keep. I thought at the time that "Elephant Talk" sounded like David Byrne if he took even more drugs. There's more than a little Andy Summers in the rhythm riff as well. I suspect that the unconscious cross-pollination theory is correct because Fripp was everywhere in the time leading up to this album.
    I think that is it more that both Talking Heads and King Crimson at that point had common outside influences like Steve Reich (Belew and Fripp first met at Reich concert), African polyrythmic music and gamelan music.
    "A waste of talent and electricity." John Peel on ELP

  2. #27
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    For me, "Discipline" is clearly one of the best 80's records. Of course the joy was great when one of the most brilliant bands returned to the spotlight. And a rather rare example that was possible for a 70's progressive rock band to create a high-quality album of current, trendy music style, as the relationship to the New Wave sound of the bands like Talking Heads is very clear. Without failing miserably like Kansas, Gentle Giant and others, a perfect symbiosis of progressive rock and zeitgeist of the early 80's succeeds here.
    Mr Fripp and his men have created a piece of music history of its own quality here. The sound is electronically cool, lyrically avant-garde and musically weird, virtuoso, perfectionistic as usual. There are no Melotron and wind instruments at all. Instead, Tony Levin's work on the stick and Bruford's electronic drum experiments. The loose groove of the songs like "Elephant Talk" is also new. I think that Belew's singing is perfectly fine, and on "Frame by Frame" it is really nice. Despite catchy choruses such as "Frame by Frame" you don't have to do without complexity and polyrhythmics. Disturbing, weird, impressive: "Indiscipline", which reminds me of Fripp's guitar work best of old times like "Large Tongues" or "Red". Here, however, integrated into a musically minimalist, textually avant-garde basic concept; my favourite track. Also new are the driving beats and pulsating rhythms, which come into their own again on "Thela Hun Ginjeet". I think the live versions of the 80's songs on "Absent Lovers" (live double CD) are very successful as well. Nevertheless, in its uniqueness and musical consistency, "Discipline" is a worthwhile album.

  3. #28
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    It's an OK album, but I prefer Fear Of Music by some margin.
    I love both.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kcrimso View Post
    I think that is it more that both Talking Heads and King Crimson at that point had common outside influences like Steve Reich (Belew and Fripp first met at Reich concert), African polyrythmic music and gamelan music.
    I'd buy that if the "Sound" appeared at the same time, but it didn't.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I'd buy that if the "Sound" appeared at the same time, but it didn't.
    You really mean that Discipline sounds the same as Fear Of Music?
    "A waste of talent and electricity." John Peel on ELP

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I first got this when it was an auto-shipment from Columbia House that I decided to keep. I thought at the time that "Elephant Talk" sounded like David Byrne if he took even more drugs. There's more than a little Andy Summers in the rhythm riff as well. I suspect that the unconscious cross-pollination theory is correct because Fripp was everywhere in the time leading up to this album.
    As for rhythm influence, Andy Summers wouldn’t be what I would chose. I would chose Stewart Copeland who was a true innovator in rhythm. Stewart’s work with Stanley Clarke was later, but built upon that. Bill Bruford had the first accurate sampled emulation of percussion and he emulated African percussion very well.
    Last edited by Firth; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:29 PM.
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  7. #32
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kcrimso View Post
    You really mean that Discipline sounds the same as Fear Of Music?
    The same, as in identical...No. Some similarities?..Yup.
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  8. #33
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    It's an OK album, but I prefer Fear Of Music by some margin.
    Huh, I can see Fear Of Music as a kind of prototype or ancestor, but thatís as far as Iíd go. The repetition on Discipline is sinuous and variable; on Remain in Light itís gloriously hypnotic; on Fear Of Music itís justÖ repetitious. I donít think thereís any composition on Discipline as thin and weak as ďPaperĒ or ďElectric GuitarĒ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    As for rhythm influence, Andy Summers wouldn’t be what I would chose. I would chose Stewart Copeland who was a true innovator in rhythm. Stewart’s work with Stanley Clarke was later, but built upon that. Bull Bruford had the first accurate sampled emulation of percussion and he emulated African percussion very well.
    And "Bull" Bruford has praised Copeland on several occasions that I have read/heard. I believe once he specifically cited Copeland as an influence on his Discipline work but I can't remember a reference...

    Funny about the "sampled emulation of percussion": I always assumed that the Sheltering Sky percussion was a sample. Only when I saw the 80s DVD of the band did I realize he was actually playing some sort of tuned wood block (I'm sure our many percussion experts here will know the name of this instrument).

    EDIT: Here it is! While I have overplayed Discipline to the death, this piece still retains the magic for me.

    Last edited by arturs; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:01 PM.

  10. #35
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    On the verge of indecision
    I'll always take the roundabout way

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    And "Bull" Bruford has praised Copeland on several occasions that I have read/heard. I believe once he specifically cited Copeland as an influence on his Discipline work but I can't remember a reference...

    Funny about the "sampled emulation of percussion": I always assumed that the Sheltering Sky percussion was a sample. Only when I saw the 80s DVD of the band did I realize he was actually playing some sort of tuned wood block (I'm sure our many percussion experts here will know the name of this instrument).

    EDIT: Here it is! While I have overplayed Discipline to the death, this piece still retains the magic for me.

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  12. #37
    One of my favorite King Crimson albums. I guess my love for Talking Heads played a part in my enjoyment of this album and version of Crimson, but it really felt like a revelation the first time I listened to it. For me, not a weak song on the album and definitely a beginning to end listen.

    I also love the way how it ends fits perfectly with the way Beat begins.
    No matter what anyone says, you are the decider of how you will listen to music.

  13. #38
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    I love this album. It wasn't a stretch for me to go from ITCOTCK to Discipline because Discipline took the old King Crimson I loved and with a modern updated plunked it right in the middle of what Talking Heads and Peter Gabriel were doing (plus a little gamelan music where the two guitars were concerned). And I certainly loved what they were up to.

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    One of the proudest moments of my life is when my 17 year old daughter and I worked out the interlocking guitar bits for the intro of Frame by Frame and played them together in my studio on acoustics.

    The smile on her face when we finally landed in the right spot at the end was priceless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by julioscissors View Post
    One of the proudest moments of my life is when my 17 year old daughter and I worked out the interlocking guitar bits for the intro of Frame by Frame and played them together in my studio on acoustics.

    The smile on her face when we finally landed in the right spot at the end was priceless!
    That's fantastic.

  16. #41
    Parrots ripped my flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    And "Bull" Bruford has praised Copeland on several occasions that I have read/heard. I believe once he specifically cited Copeland as an influence on his Discipline work but I can't remember a reference...

    Funny about the "sampled emulation of percussion": I always assumed that the Sheltering Sky percussion was a sample. Only when I saw the 80s DVD of the band did I realize he was actually playing some sort of tuned wood block (I'm sure our many percussion experts here will know the name of this instrument).
    https://wpkn.streamrewind.com/bookmarks/listen/290572
    King Crimson – Sheltering Sky- Discipline (1981)
    Song title is taken from Paul Bowles 1949 novel "Sheltering Sky." The title is again referenced by the band in the lyrics to their song Walking on Air from their 1995 album Thrak. Drummer/percussionist Bill Bruford revealed that the distinctive percussion instrument that anchors this track “… is a “toy” version of an African log drum, or slit drum. It has eight tines, or tongues, is made of California redwood, and costs about $25 in a Hollywood tourist shop.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by julioscissors View Post
    One of the proudest moments of my life is when my 17 year old daughter and I worked out the interlocking guitar bits for the intro of Frame by Frame and played them together in my studio on acoustics.

    The smile on her face when we finally landed in the right spot at the end was priceless!
    Beautiful story indeed. I must say you and your kid are both quite talented to be able to pull that off. When I was in high school my guitar teacher tried to teach me the FbF interlocking parts. We would attempt to do them together but I would usually screw it up. It was magic when it worked and when it was working I would get so excited and the excitement alone would make me mess it up. Not sure we ever finished it properly.

    My guitar teacher BTW was Jesse Gress who went on to play with T Lev and Todd Rundgren. I saw him play with Levin twice, many years after my lessons. I remember he did a damn fine Elephant Talk and afterwards I reminded with him about his struggles trying to teach me those Discipline tunes. He did remember it and laughed, trying to say something nice like "a lot of my students struggled with those..."

  18. #43
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    Adrian did an amazing job on Discipline.
    Ade is all over it, indeed.

    And he brought with him a lot of what he did with The Talking Heads, which is really why Discipline was so different than the 70's KC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    That whole Drive to 81 thing was because Fripp claimed there was going to be some apocalypse caused by planetary alignment. I'm not sure whether he believed that stuff or it was just some attention-getting gimmick to get himself some--you guessed it--Exposure. There's also the possibility he was just putting people on.
    Well it did happen!!! Though it took 40 years to show effects: see the Swan Lake tutu & tights thing in his garden.

    Quote Originally Posted by lovecraft View Post
    As a teenage progger I never really entertained anything from the dreaded 80s. No trons? No Nick!
    Never disliked Discipline (but disliked the 80's in general), cos I liked Talking Heads , but main thanks would go the Jeanne Beker (and JD Roberts, to a lesser extent) who insisted heavily of this album in the predecessor show of MuchMusic called The New Music - she also insisted on The Police as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    I have to admit that after that phenomenal UK album, I wasnít super excited about this release, however I have drummer genes and have loved Brufordís work. When I hear the album now, I enjoy it more than when I first heard it.
    TBH, UK, Bruford (the band), Asia never did a lot for me as I was becoming an older teenager. Even early Brand X didn't really do it for me until I stepped into JR/F in 82/3 or so - via Caravanserai and Birds Of Fire. And even when I did catch on, it wasn't pure love either. All that later 70's JR/F stuff sounded more sterile than the early 70's JR/F

    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    It's an OK album, but I prefer Fear Of Music by some margin.
    I see where you're going, but I'll take RiL and SiT as my faves from TH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Munster View Post
    Fear Of Music had Fripp on it and Remain In Light had Belew. Both albums were excellent and both these guitarists had key inputs to them (Fripp on I Zimbra and Belew on everything on Remain In Light, but my favourite is Born Under Punches).
    Never understood the "greatness" of FoM

    I totally dig RiL and also SiT - though I suspect that seeing Demme's Stop making Sense helped out a lot in that liking that TH era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Over the years I've heard people claim that Belew's singing style was a ripoff of Byrne's, but he was singing that way on Zappa's '77 tour already, that's just how he sounds.
    Only ever really picked out Belew's presence in Zappa's music in the film Baby Snakes.
    But yeah, he adds that uptight/manic madness that you find in Byrne.

    Quote Originally Posted by lovecraft View Post
    A rip off would be inaccurate but I do think there is some unconscious cross-pollination between KC, TH and even Synchronicity era Police.
    Isn't Synchronicity from 83 (which would be out-of-scale for Discipline's influences)?
    But yeah, we're in the same spectrum - and Summers had been flirting with Fripp to make an album for a couple of years before it actually happened. I remember that same Beker (of The New Music) interviewing AS and calling him out to see if it wasn't a bluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    As for rhythm influence, Andy Summers wouldnít be what I would chose. I would chose Stewart Copeland who was a true innovator in rhythm. Stewartís work with Stanley Clarke was later, but built upon that. Bill Bruford had the first accurate sampled emulation of percussion and he emulated African percussion very well.
    I'd say both AS and SC were, but for their later albums (especially 3ofPP), because by the Discipline recording time (first part of 81), Ghost In A Machine wasn't out yet (came ot just afterwards of Discipline of memory serves), and Sting & Co were still thought of generally as a "white reggae" outfit.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  19. #44
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    I wouldnít put UK in the group as Asia or those other bands.^
    On the verge of indecision
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  20. #45
    1981 was the year of Univers Zero's Ceux Du Dehors, DŁn's Eros, Material's Memory Serves and not least Deceit by This Heat. These were all genuinely potentially -revolutionary- rock records, musically/creatively speaking.

    Of course, none of those had the "right" band-member connections.

    Discipline is Ok. Fripp's Exposure and parts of the League of Gentlemen were better, IMHO.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  21. #46
    Profondo Giallo Crystal Plumage's Avatar
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    Initially I didn't like the album, but it since has grown on me and is now one of my very favorites by them.
    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    Funny about the "sampled emulation of percussion": I always assumed that the Sheltering Sky percussion was a sample. Only when I saw the 80s DVD of the band did I realize he was actually playing some sort of tuned wood block (I'm sure our many percussion experts here will know the name of this instrument).

    Did a quick search an lo and behold, found the answer:
    What's that square box like thing you put under your arm and play with a mallet on Sheltering Sky?

    It is a “toy” version of an African log drum, or slit drum. It has eight tines, or tongues, is made of California redwood, and costs about $25 in a Hollywood tourist shop. It has a nice liquid quality with a semi-definite pitch. I bought two or three 20 years ago, and the last one needs retiring. It was used with King Crimson on the tracks Discipline, Sheltering Sky and Two Hands, and with Earthworks on White Knuckle Wedding and even lent its name to Speaking in Wooden Tongues, both tracks from Random Acts of Happiness. Before you ask, I don’t think they are made any more! My log/tongue/slit drums currently come from Michael Thiele of Hardwood Music Company whose products are available at africantreasures.com. You might also want to check tonguedrum.com.
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