Zappa's orchestra stuff

[aith01]

This morning I was listening to "Strictly Genteel" from the Orchestral Favorites 40th Anniversary edition, and was struck by just how beautiful this piece is. It's an impressive composition really, I think. "Duke of Prunes" is great as well of course. I'd like to explore more of his orchestral music, and thought about scooping up Little Dots next. Got Wazoo already, but haven't heard it in a long time so I need to revisit.

My brother is not really a fan of FZ's music, although he really likes "Montana". But yesterday I sent him YouTube links to "Strictly Genteel" and "Duke of Prunes", both of which he actually liked. While those are probably not as challenging as a lot of other things, they're both lovely compositions deserving appreciation.

I was wondering what you guys think about his orchestra music? Or even his synclavier stuff? I'd like to hear more of it, and hear your insights as well.

[alucard]

Zappa started as a "serious" contemporary composer and that was always his main motivation ( and fun) to put little dots on music paper and eventually find musicians that could play his music.
It's quite sad and funny to read about his adventures in orchestra Land. He was quite Lucky with Kent Nagano and then with the Ensemble Modern towards the end of his live. The synclavier stuff resulted directly from his difficulties to have executed his music the way he wanted it to be.
All of his music played by larger ensembles is highly recommended with the Ensemble Modern as my favorite orchestra. I saw them once live with Greggery Peccery as main dish and it was fantastic.

[StarThrower]

Little Dots is not orchestral. And half of it is jam material. If you want real orchestra material listen to the London Symphony 2 disc set, The Yellow Shark, and the first two tracks on The Perfect Stranger.

[Mister Triscuits]

Little Dots is not orchestral. It is a live album by a short-lived 10-piece touring lineup, nicknamed the Petit Wazoo, that never made a studio recording.

My favorite orchestral Zappa is actually some of his earliest, from the 200 Motels album. You really hear the Ligeti/Penderecki/Xenakis influences there, and I love the way it mingles with the rock/Flo & Eddie sound world. Zappa was at his best when discarding stylistic barriers. The more mature LSO stuff is great, but some of it does go on a bit. Of course I love hearing the 200 Motels themes developed into that "big" version of "Bogus Pomp."

As for the Synclavier music, Civilization Phaze III is a masterpiece. Stunning, deep, mesmerizing stuff. Some of the dialogue bits are kind of regrettable, but the music is brilliant. Jazz from Hell is good, but has always struck me as somehow a bit thin. The Boulez album, combining both orchestral and Synclavier work, is pretty wonderful, but after CP3 my favorite Zappa Synclavier pieces are the ones that appeared on Mothers of Prevention.

[StarThrower]

Is the original 200 Motels album finally getting a re-issue? There is also the excellent sounding Esa-Pekka Salonen / LA Philharmonic recordings from 2013.
https://www.zappa.com/news/frank-zap...cal-compendium

[pb2015]

There are rumors the Zappa Trust will do a 200 Motels anniversary release (this fall seems likely to me) but it will probably be outtakes and related stuff, not the original album which is still owned by MGM.

[pb2015]

The Petit Wazoo did early versions of a few of the Royce Hall pieces including "Rollo" and "Duke Of Prunes" (which was not on the official releases). "Little Dots" was a Webern-style short theme that no other Zappa band played, that they followed with improvised solos.

[aith01]

Little Dots is not orchestral. And half of it is jam material. If you want real orchestra material listen to the London Symphony 2 disc set, The Yellow Shark, and the first two tracks on The Perfect Stranger.

Little Dots is not orchestral. It is a live album by a short-lived 10-piece touring lineup, nicknamed the Petit Wazoo, that never made a studio recording.

Woops... The "Petit Wazoo" name made me think it was orchestral for some reason. I was thinking that the Wazoo stuff was with an orchestra, but it was a 20-piece big band.

I want to check out Civilization Phaze III one of these days. The only track from Jazz From Hell that I remember liking was "Night School", but I should revisit that one as well. Feeding the Monkies at Ma Maison I found to be a very difficult listen...

Thanks for the tips guys. I forgot all about Mothers of Prevention!

[Monet]

I'd like to recommend "Orchestral Favorites 40th Anniversary" 3xCD, as a must have for Zappa fans, but also for everyone else, as a wonderful opportunity to venture into the world of his orchestral works.
"Orchestral Favorites", originally released in 1979 but recorded in 1975, is Zappa's first full orchestra album (orchestras have already been heard on "Lumpy Gravy" and "200 Motels"). It contains five orchestral pieces + "Strictly Genteel" as a bonus track on above mentioned 40th Anniversary Remaster. The recordings were made on two days in September in the Royce Hall on the grounds of the University of California in Los Angeles (later revisions were made in the studio to correct errors). The orchestra was the 37-piece Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Symphony Orchestra, specially put together for the occasion. Michael Zearott conducted the orchestra, but Zappa also conducted some of the orchestra himself. Tommy Morgan (harmonica) and Terry Bozzio (drums) were also involved - whether André Lewis operated the keyboards, as far as I can see, is still not clear to this day.
The recordings were handed over to Warner Brothers in 1977 in the middle of a lawsuit with the aim of releasing Zappa from its contractual obligations. Warner released "Orchestral Favorites" in 1979 - without much publicity - to monetize their rights to the recordings.
"Revised Music for Guitar & Low-Budget Orchestra", which was also recorded at the time, ended up on "Studio Tan" due to lack of space.
"Orchestral Favorites" was re-released for the first time in 1991 in a Zappa remastered version of Barking Pumpkin. The stereo channels are swapped on the CD. It is the same for further re-releases in 1995 and 2012 (but not on "Läther", where the same recordings were used).
"Orchestral Favorites" contains early examples of Zappa's modern orchestral music. There is the orchestra, of course, but there is also music to be heard, such as "Duke of Prunes", which Zappa had developed from its original version into a sonata movement.
"Strictly Genteel" comes from the soundtrack to "200 Motels". Zappa must have liked that very much - the piece appears again and again in his work - but you don't have to imitate it (together with the "Tuna Sandwich" suite it appears in a better sounding version on the "LSO vol. II "-Album):"Strictly Genteel" is a pompous brass waltz in 3/4 time, traditionally orchestrated, without any great experiments or zappaesque craziness - if the craziness in this case is not that the piece can be heard here.
"Pedro's Dowry" is much more interesting: a difficult atonal piece that uses dissonances, percussive elements and polymetrics (I found, for example, a passage in which the cellos and some of the winds in 12/8 time over a 4th /4-time play). The bizarre piece is therefore very versatile, partly aggressive, partly quiet chamber music, partly ironic and gutty, then again the orchestra plays dissonant stuff to an energetic drum pulse. And as if Zappa himself didn't trust his ability to compose serious modern classical music, a parodistic, waltz-motif emerges at the end.
"Naval Aviation in Art" belongs in a similar corner, but should be taken seriously throughout. The piece is introduced by a very wonderful motif, which now interweaves the entire little piece in different variations over changing chords. Unusual for Zappa: Adagio from front to back, it seems to have primarily been about different harmony effects. A gem! Btw, Zappa expanded the track again for "The Perfect Stranger".
"Duke of Prunes" is much easier to hear again: this piece is more jazzy, and sometimes has quite catchy melodies. It is a further elaborated instrumental version of the suite "The Duke of Prunes" from Absolutely Free the album from 1967 (see the origins at "Original Duke of Prunes" on Run Home Slow the soundtrack). The recording is perhaps the main reason for many to get "Orchestral Favorites", because there is no other, better orchestral version of this piece. Zappa can also be heard in person here, he plays a guitar solo on this recording.

[StarThrower]

I want to check out Civilization Phaze III one of these days.

It's a fantastic production, and the CD package is very classy. The Synclavier generated sounds have more depth and realism than Jazz From Hell, which is still very impressive. Overall I find the album very dark and cynical so I don't play it very often. But as Biffy mentioned, the music is brilliant!

[Dave (in MA)]

Woops... The "Petit Wazoo" name made me think it was orchestral for some reason. I was thinking that the Wazoo stuff was with an orchestra, but it was a 20-piece big band.

It's an 11 piece big band, with "big band" commonly defined as an ensemble with 10 or more pieces, and many, if not most of the more well-known Big Band ensembles were billed as the bandleader's "Orchestra", though when people are referring to FZ's orchestral pieces, they usually mean the LSO and the Boulez works.

[Burley Wright]

I bought Francesco Zappa in 2015 not knowing that the music is by a composer named (wait for it) Francesco Zappa. Frank programmed the pieces into his new Synclavier according to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Zappa_(album)
Anyway, it's not Frank's music and I don't care for the record so save your money.

[Dave (in MA)]

As with Lumpy Gravy, I made a more listenable (to me) version of CP3 by editing out as much piano people nonsense as possible.

[aith01]

It's an 11 piece big band, with "big band" commonly defined as an ensemble with 10 or more pieces, and many, if not most of the more well-known Big Band ensembles were billed as the bandleader's "Orchestra", though when people are referring to FZ's orchestral pieces, they usually mean the LSO and the Boulez works.

Oh, I was referring to the other album (just called "Wazoo") from 2007, which had a 20-piece band on it. I mistakenly thought that the Petit Wazoo band was the same.

[aith01]

Yeah, I'm not sure I "get" the piano people stuff. But it's certainly strange and interesting.

[StarThrower]

Yeah, I'm not sure I "get" the piano people stuff. But it's certainly strange and interesting.

That stuff I find charming and creatively put together. It's some of the other spoken literal commentary on Phase III I can do without. I prefer to keep it on the absurd side of things for an album to be listened to many times.

[pb2015]

"Revised Music for Guitar & Low-Budget Orchestra", which was also recorded at the time, ended up on "Studio Tan" due to lack of space.

"Revised Music.." on Studio Tan is actually from the One Size Fits All sessions. "Greggery Peccary" is also mostly from those sessions but the ending has been edited in from the Royce Hall recordings. (There is an earlier edit on bootlegs with a different non-Royce Hall ending.)

[pb2015]

That stuff I find charming and creatively put together. It's some of the other spoken literal commentary on Phase III I can do without. I prefer to keep it on the absurd side of things for an album to be listened to many times.

CPIII has two "piano people" sessions, one from the 60's Lumpy Gravy recordings and another from the 90's including actor Michael Rapaport and some of the Ensemble Moderne. There is also some bleak "literal commentary" from Zappa in the liner notes.

[Baribrotzer]

Here's a slightly edited version of Monet's post. My apologies for "fixing" it, but it was hard to read.

I'd like to recommend Orchestral Favorites 40th Anniversary 3xCD, as a must have for Zappa fans, but also for everyone else, as a wonderful opportunity to venture into the world of his orchestral works.

Orchestral Favorites, originally released in 1979 but recorded in 1975, is Zappa's first full orchestra album (orchestras have already been heard on Lumpy Gravy and 200 Motels). It contains five orchestral pieces + "Strictly Genteel" as a bonus track on above mentioned 40th Anniversary Remaster. The recordings were made on two days in September in the Royce Hall on the grounds of the University of California in Los Angeles (later revisions were made in the studio to correct errors). The orchestra was the 37-piece Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Symphony Orchestra, specially put together for the occasion. Michael Zearott conducted the orchestra, but Zappa also conducted some of the orchestra himself. Tommy Morgan (harmonica) and Terry Bozzio (drums) were also involved - whether André Lewis operated the keyboards, as far as I can see, is still not clear to this day.

The recordings were handed over to Warner Brothers in 1977 in the middle of a lawsuit with the aim of releasing Zappa from its contractual obligations. Warner released Orchestral Favorites in 1979 - without much publicity - to monetize their rights to the recordings. The album was re-released for the first time in 1991 in a Zappa remastered version of Barking Pumpkin. The stereo channels are swapped on the CD. It is the same for further re-releases in 1995 and 2012 (but not on Läther, where the same recordings were used).

Orchestral Favorites contains early examples of Zappa's modern orchestral music. There is the orchestra, of course, but there is also music to be heard, such as "Duke of Prunes", which Zappa had developed from its original version into a sonata movement.

• "Strictly Genteel" comes from the soundtrack to 200 Motels. Zappa must have liked that very much - the piece appears again and again in his work - but you don't have to imitate it (together with the "Tuna Sandwich" suite it appears in a better sounding version on the LSO vol. II album): "Strictly Genteel" is a pompous brass waltz in 3/4 time, traditionally orchestrated, without any great experiments or Zappaesque craziness - if the craziness in this case is not that the piece can be heard here.
  
  
• "Pedro's Dowry" is much more interesting: a difficult atonal piece that uses dissonances, percussive elements and polymetrics (I found, for example, a passage in which the cellos and some of the winds in 12/8 time over a 4th /4-time play). The bizarre piece is therefore very versatile, partly aggressive, partly quiet chamber music, partly ironic and gutty, then again the orchestra plays dissonant stuff to an energetic drum pulse. And as if Zappa himself didn't trust his ability to compose serious modern classical music, a parodistic, waltz-motif emerges at the end.
  
  
• "Naval Aviation in Art" belongs in a similar corner, but should be taken seriously throughout. The piece is introduced by a very wonderful motif, which now interweaves the entire little piece in different variations over changing chords. Unusual for Zappa: Adagio from front to back, it seems to have primarily been about different harmony effects. A gem! Btw, Zappa expanded the track again for The Perfect Stranger.
  
  
• "Duke of Prunes" is much easier to hear again: this piece is more jazzy, and sometimes has quite catchy melodies. It is a further elaborated instrumental version of the suite "The Duke of Prunes" from Absolutely Free the album from 1967 (see the origins at "Original Duke of Prunes" on Run Home Slow the soundtrack). The recording is perhaps the main reason for many to get Orchestral Favorites, because there is no other, better orchestral version of this piece. Zappa can also be heard in person here, he plays a guitar solo on this recording.
  
  
• "Revised Music for Guitar & Low-Budget Orchestra", which was also recorded at the time, ended up on Studio Tan due to lack of space.

[StarThrower]

CPIII has two "piano people" sessions, one from the 60's Lumpy Gravy recordings and another from the 90's including actor Michael Rapaport and some of the Ensemble Moderne. There is also some bleak "literal commentary" from Zappa in the liner notes.

Yeah, the usual stupid America and government stuff. But the reverberant piano dialogue stuff is cool!

[aith01]

That stuff I find charming and creatively put together. It's some of the other spoken literal commentary on Phase III I can do without. I prefer to keep it on the absurd side of things for an album to be listened to many times.

I can totally understand that. I prefer the absurd stuff myself.

[Munster]

It's an 11 piece big band, with "big band" commonly defined as an ensemble with 10 or more pieces, and many, if not most of the more well-known Big Band ensembles were billed as the bandleader's "Orchestra", though when people are referring to FZ's orchestral pieces, they usually mean the LSO and the Boulez works.

I am not a fan of Zappa's symphonic work but am on a 'brass big band bender' at the moment and was wondering which of his albums I could listen to. At the moment it seems that Jaka/Jawaka, The Grand Wazoo, Imaginary Diseases and Wazoo are the ones to get. Are there any other Zappa big band albums, without strings, available?

[chalkpie]

I am not a fan of Zappa's symphonic work but am on a 'brass big band bender' at the moment and was wondering which of his albums I could listen to. At the moment it seems that Jaka/Jawaka, The Grand Wazoo, Imaginary Diseases and Wazoo are the ones to get. Are there any other Zappa big band albums, without strings, available?

The 88 band albums essentially are big band albums, well small band actually. Try Best Band and Jazz Noise to start. In New York had a brass ensemble with Michael Brecker just killin it. Little Dots also.

[pb2015]

Little Dots (mentioned earlier in the thread) is more vault stuff from the same band as Imaginary Diseases.

Also along similar lines is Road Tapes, Venue 2 from summer 1973 with the Overnite Sensation era band.

[StarThrower]

The 88 band albums essentially are big band albums, well small band actually. Try Best Band and Jazz Noise to start. In New York had a brass ensemble with Michael Brecker just killin it. Little Dots also.

Jazz Noise is a huge fave in the Zappa catalogue! The first couple of Ed Palermo Big Band Zappa CDs are great for brass. Hard to find on CD but easily streamed. Take Your Clothes Of... on Cuneiform Records, and Plays Zappa on Astor Place Recordings.