Pink Floyd Summer '68 question

[GuitarGeek]

Anyone know for sure if that's real brass on that song or not? I swear it sounds like Mellotron brass, but according to Wikipedia, something called the Abbey Road Session Pops Orchestra (must be the same guys who played on side one of the album) actually play on the track. Anyone know for sure? Or is a mix of the two?

[lovecraft]

To these ears that is plainly real brass. Mellotron brass sounds quite different.

[GuitarGeek]

To these ears that is plainly real brass. Mellotron brass sounds quite different.

Fair enough. I wonder, also, if it's possible that Rick did the brass overdubs himself. You can hear him playing trombone on Biding My Time, so I wonder if he could have just done the brass parts himself. Is htere anything there might not be trombone?

[Paulrus]

I wonder, also, if it's possible that Rick did the brass overdubs himself. You can hear him playing trombone on Biding My Time, so I wonder if he could have just done the brass parts himself.

I can't imagine them wanting to undertake such a complicated task of recording Rick and then overdubbing him covering multiple other parts (which, with the technology of the times would have squashed everything flat) when they knew they already had the full orchestra booked for the main "AHM" suite. I'm guessing Rick probably thought "Hey, it would be fun to add some brass to this other song. I'll see if they don't mind adding it to the session."

[pmrviana]

To me that sounds like real brass too. Love that song!

[Mister Triscuits]

something called the Abbey Road Session Pops Orchestra (must be the same guys who played on side one of the album) actually play on the track.

Ron Geesin, in his book about the making of "Atom Heart Mother" (the suite), describes the players he was confronted with at the recording session as "top-end studio musicians, booked through the system." I suspect that "Abbey Road Session Pops Orchestra" is just a catchall name for whatever musicians happen to be booked for a given session. (Geesin has nothing to say about "Summer '68.")

[lovecraft]

Listen to the opening section of Superficial Roadblocks by Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come for some relatively unaccompanied mellotron brass. YouTube is your friend.

[Kai]

According to Guesdon & Margotin's book, two "unidentified session musicians" were hired to play brass instruments on this track. Their parts were recorded in December 1968, as the song was originally recorded for Ummagumma and then partially reworked later. This would be well before there was any talk about the "Atom Heart Mother" suite and orchestra. Mellotron brass is used to fatten up the real brass on repeats.

[calyx]

According to Guesdon & Margotin's book, two "unidentified session musicians" were hired to play brass instruments on this track. Their parts were recorded in December 1968, as the song was originally recorded for Ummagumma and then partially reworked later. This would be well before there was any talk about the "Atom Heart Mother" suite and orchestra. Mellotron brass is used to fatten up the real brass on repeats.

That's interesting. I didn't know of this book, nor had I ever heard that the track was begun over a year before the rest of the album. Would you recommend that book or is it just the one bit of exclusive information it has to offer ?

Does it confirm that it's Gilmour drumming on "Fat Old Sun" ? I've read it mentioned and I agree it doesn't sound like Mason playing.

[Kai]

I didn't know that either, before reading the book. It does state as a fact that Gilmour played the drums on "Fat Old Sun", but it does not cite sources for this information (the "Summer '68" stuff is based on studio records). It also speculates that he played the bass and recorder parts on the track.

As a whole, I don't think that the book has very much exclusive information for really hard-core Pink Floyd fans with encyclopedic knowledge of the band. I did learn new things from it, but most of the information seems to be gleaned from previously available sources, many of which I was familiar with. There is quite a lot of discussion of instruments and production details, which I found nice, though here too, it seems often to be based on speculation than solid information. As the book is based on song by song analysis, much of it is general description of music and lyrics, pointing out lyrical allusions and some musical details. You get a lot of descriptions like "Roger Waters plays a very good bass part with his Fender Precision bass". The book is lavishly illustrated and quite nice, just not some great fountain of gnostic knowledge or profound analysis - a bit like many of these "all the songs" type books put out over the last ten years, just bigger and glossier than most.

Note that I'm referring to the English edition Pink Floyd All The Songs: The Story Behing Every Track (2017). I can't say how different the original French edition, Pink Floyd, La Totale, is.

[soundsweird]

Wow, some good "new" info here, and though I've had the album since it came out (and bought the "making of AHM" DVD that has a lot of interview footage with Ron Geesin), I never knew any of it. Always thought it was possible/likely that Geesin helped with the brass arrangement on "Summer '68", though I've never seen a shred of evidence that he did. I've got a bunch of his albums and even bought a Bridget St. John album on which he performed and produced.

[Mister Triscuits]

Always thought it was possible/likely that Geesin helped with the brass arrangement on "Summer '68", though I've never seen a shred of evidence that he did.

Here is all Geesin has to say about the side two songs in his book:

Side Two of the album is certainly not cohesive but, rather like a family photograph album, is an irreversible document of the time, and nonetheless colourful for all that. There is Roger sitting on his own, pensively poetic and predicting a self-imposed period of future loneliness. David and Rick somewhere in the middle of the road, and a very out-of-focus group shot.

Doesn't sound to me like he had any involvement there.

[Kai]

Here is all Geesin has to say about the side two songs in his book:



Doesn't sound to me like he had any involvement there.

He actually says so in the introduction (page 8): "Since the final title, Atom Heart Mother, was also used to name the whole LP record, side two of which I had no part in, there has been further confusion as to what precise work various individuals have addressed their comments, not helped by vague and inaccurate reporting of the popular music press or the tangled netting of the World Wide Web." (emphasis added)

[SunshipVoyager1976]

I’m pretty sure Rick is playing the trombone and saxophone on “Biding My Time”, so he could have done the brass parts- but it sounds like an orchestral brass section to me.

[ronmac]

What a great period. My favorite PF period begins here and ends with Meddle. I would guess "Relics" was my introduction, like many others. A truly great comp. One of the best ever, IMNSHO.

I believe "Biding My Time" first appeared in that set. It was originally part of the "The Man and the Journey" suite from early '69.

That post-Syd 1968-69 period leading into AHM is so great. Clearly, the boys are still finding their way. But man, they were just exploding creatively, but without the structure (for better or worse) they brought to their work later on.

I'll take songs like "Cymbaline," "The Embryo," Green is the Colour," "CwtAE," any time. Those BBC recordings from the Paris Theater. Man, that's desert island music for me.

[Trane]

I can't imagine them wanting to undertake such a complicated task of recording Rick and then overdubbing him covering multiple other parts (which, with the technology of the times would have squashed everything flat) when they knew they already had the full orchestra booked for the main "AHM" suite. I'm guessing Rick probably thought "Hey, it would be fun to add some brass to this other song. I'll see if they don't mind adding it to the session."

Wow, some good "new" info here, and though I've had the album since it came out (and bought the "making of AHM" DVD that has a lot of interview footage with Ron Geesin), I never knew any of it. Always thought it was possible/likely that Geesin helped with the brass arrangement on "Summer '68", though I've never seen a shred of evidence that he did. I've got a bunch of his albums and even bought a Bridget St. John album on which he performed and produced.

That was my assumption as well: same dudes on on So68 as on AHM.
But if So68 dates back to the Umma (which in some ways makes sense, given the 68), then it can not be so; unless they (brass parts) were added to the original tapes to beef it up for AHM - which doesn't sound all that likely, either. A total re-recording of So68 (whenever that took place) makes more sense to me

BTW, I also investigated a few early Geesin albums some 10/15 years ago (yup my library system had them on loan), because of AHM and Music From The Body.
Odd fellow - very bizarre and inventive oeuvre .

What a great period. My favorite PF period begins here and ends with Meddle. I would guess "Relics" was my introduction, like many others. A truly great comp. One of the best ever, IMNSHO.

I believe "Biding My Time" first appeared in that set. It was originally part of the "The Man and the Journey" suite from early '69.

That post-Syd 1968-69 period leading into AHM is so great. Clearly, the boys are still finding their way. But man, they were just exploding creatively, but without the structure (for better or worse) they brought to their work later on.

I'll take songs like "Cymbaline," "The Embryo," Green is the Colour," "CwtAE," any time. Those BBC recordings from the Paris Theater. Man, that's desert island music for me.

Yup, 95% of my actual Floyd listening ranges between SoS album until OBC, but excluding Meddle (which I still love but am cureently saturated with it) and I still find it fascinating and never understood the critics and disdain against them for all those groundbreaking endeavours.
Oddly enough, though, I never owned Relics (borrowed it a few tipmes) - maybe it's time I finally did.

I never really cared for the Barrett ditties, and outside Power Toc H and Instellar Overdrive, I don't retain anything from Gates of Dawn (even for Astronomy Domine, the UG version is all I need)

According to Guesdon & Margotin's book, two "unidentified session musicians" were hired to play brass instruments on this track. Their parts were recorded in December 1968, as the song was originally recorded for Ummagumma and then partially reworked later. This would be well before there was any talk about the "Atom Heart Mother" suite and orchestra.

Note that I'm referring to the English edition Pink Floyd All The Songs: The Story Behing Every Track (2017). I can't say how different the original French edition, Pink Floyd, La Totale, is.

I'll maybe check out the PF: La Totale book out of curiosity, which I totally ignored at release time.

[Tangram]

What a great period. My favorite PF period begins here and ends with Meddle. I would guess "Relics" was my introduction, like many others. A truly great comp. One of the best ever, IMNSHO.

I believe "Biding My Time" first appeared in that set. It was originally part of the "The Man and the Journey" suite from early '69.

That post-Syd 1968-69 period leading into AHM is so great. Clearly, the boys are still finding their way. But man, they were just exploding creatively, but without the structure (for better or worse) they brought to their work later on.

I'll take songs like "Cymbaline," "The Embryo," Green is the Colour," "CwtAE," any time. Those BBC recordings from the Paris Theater. Man, that's desert island music for me.

"Biding My Time" is a great song! Was very surprised to here that Wright played the trombone and then found out the he actually played several instruments besides keys. And Relics is a good as a comp gets.

[GuitarGeek]

"Biding My Time" is a great song! Was very surprised to here that Wright played the trombone and then found out the he actually played several instruments besides keys. And Relics is a good as a comp gets.

Yeah, that's him playign the occasional vibraphone you hear on the early records. Wikipedia says he also played trumpet, saxophone, and guitar.

And Relics is a good as a comp gets.

I beg to differ. It would have been a lot better if it had included Candy And A Currant Bun, Apples And Oranges, It Would Be So Nice and Point Me At The Sky.

[ronmac]

I beg to differ. It would have been a lot better if it had included Candy And A Currant Bun, Apples And Oranges, It Would Be So Nice and Point Me At The Sky.

Perhaps, but they wouldn't have fit on the LP, which already pushes 50 minutes.

[Mister Triscuits]

Perhaps, but they wouldn't have fit on the LP, which already pushes 50 minutes.

I assumed this meant replacing some of the redundant tracks that had already appeared on albums.

[Tangram]

Yeah, that's him playign the occasional vibraphone you hear on the early records. Wikipedia says he also played trumpet, saxophone, and guitar.


I beg to differ. It would have been a lot better if it had included Candy And A Currant Bun, Apples And Oranges, It Would Be So Nice and Point Me At The Sky.

It had a special place for me because of how I got the albums. My older brother introduced me to PF via DSOTM, and I didn't start buying albums until just before The Wall came out. So I got DSOTM, WYWH, Animals and The Wall in short order. Then Relics, which is a whole different beast. So then I had to work backwards from Dark Side.

Maybe one could have subbed a track or two, but that's with any comp. I was so happy to get the rest with the Shine On box. The only regret is there were two albums when I bought them, one with Nick Mason's cover and the other guy with 4 eyes. I choose the latter because it was a dollar cheaper. I didn't know what was the original at the time.

[Trane]

I have that one! (Photo is not mine.)

moo.jpg

Excellent!!

It had a special place for me because of how I got the albums. My older brother introduced me to PF via DSOTM, and I didn't start buying albums until just before The Wall came out. So I got DSOTM, WYWH, Animals and The Wall in short order. Then Relics, which is a whole different beast. So then I had to work backwards from Dark Side.

I jumped on ship with DSOTM (fall 74) and WYWH wasn't out yet.
So I went next to Meddle (I WTF at the nightmarish sonics of Echoes) then AHM and UG (I didn't care for the Barrett albums at all back then, figuring Saucerful was one of them - which is not false, of course), by then WYWH was out. I later moved to More and Saucerful. Never did pick up Relics (or OBC as well), but I did borrow it from buddies. Tracks like Embryo, Cymbalene (not the More version) and Green were therefore not part of my Floyd soundscape until much later. It's a shame that when Floyd reissued Relics with the Blue & Bronze artwork that they didn't take advantage to add those missing tracks on the empty space on the CD: they even shortened Eugene of two minutes for it.

I remember seeing in the bins another grey compilation called Master Works (or just Works, maybe), but there were very few tracks I didn't already have, so I passed.

[JJ88]

Yes it remains perplexing as to why there has not been a widely available collection of their singles and stray cuts*. That Early Years 2cd sampler should have done this but yet again, it had some of the singles but not all of them.

Relics is OK for what it is- at the time, a budget-priced collection- but it should have been replaced in the catalogue with something better by now, IMHO.

*'Embryo' and 'Biding My Time' are the obvious ones but you could also include the Zabriskie Point stuff, I guess. (I personally would also include 'Scream Thy Last Scream' and 'Vegetable Man'...)

[ronmac]

Masters of Rock was always in the import section of the local stores. I saw it many times back then.

[GuitarGeek]

Masters of Rock was always in the import section of the local stores. I saw it many times back then.

The record stores I went to generally didn't have import sections. Also, I was shopping int he 80's, by which time, I imagine, Masters Of Rock was out of print.