When you're in a long-running band -- whether you've been in it from day one, or are the new person brought in -- there is a certain expectation of what that band sounds like that has developed over the years. Sometimes people lean into that. Sometimes people deliberately go against it. But it's there either way. So, Downes, like the newest member Davison, and the oldest member Howe, are all I imagine, to an extent, choosing to write or choosing to select from among their ideas the "Yessy" stuff for this album, and they all have plenty of alternate outlets for their other ideas. I think that's true of all long-running bands, except for those who have abandoned even doing new albums!
I wouldn't call that "playing dress-up", although I understand what you mean. As with all things, what matters is the execution. How do you let that long history come through into the new music? For Howe et al. in 2021, there's the question of what parts of that history do honour or not. (In your language, are they dressing up like the Tales band, the Drama band or the 90125 band?) What does it mean to be "Yessy"?
But there's also an almost circular thing. Howe is going to sound like Howe because he is Howe. A lot of Yes's classic sound was because of him, so if he's just naturally being himself, you're going to hear "Yessy" elements. Are those elements there because Howe is on guitar, or are those elements there because Howe is deliberately trying to sound "Yessy"? Does the distinction even matter? Or take Billy Sherwood: he was a huge Yes fan growing up, people told him his work sounded Yes-like before he ever met the band. If Sherwood sounds a bit like Squire, is that just Sherwood sounding like Sherwood, or is that Sherwood trying to sound like Squire?
Listening to "The Ice Bridge", I hear Howe being like Howe, which isn't a surprise. Sherwood is doing a Squire-ish thing on bass, but he does that in other projects too. Davison, on the other hand, sounds to me to be doing something quite different in style with the vocal melody to Anderson, but then the lyrics are quite Olias like. Likewise, Downes isn't throwing in the sort of stuff you expect from Rick Wakeman, and which Oliver Wakeman would do. (Then again, Downes implies Kaye is more of an influence on his Yes work.) So, sure, they're working within the context of being Yes, but overall this sounds like Howe/White/Downes/Sherwood/Davison to me.
Henry
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Do we have an explanation, Henry? Where is that champion of clear communication now, that felt people were justified in excoriating Crimson for not being clear enough in explanation?
We don't have an explanation. We have a reiteration of Downes' claim to have written the music, previously stated in the songwriting credits. Nothing has been explained, the waters are even murkier than when the Monkman track started circulating. Downes is obligated to say nothing he doesn't want to. But lack of an obligation to explain is not an explanation.
Huge fan of Downes here, and I give him the benefit of the doubt for now. But IMO he should at least acknowledge that the optics are weird.
By all means, read the discussion here, the 14 pages of discussion at Yesfans.com, the two Reddit threads, and umpteen Facebook posts, and then decide for yourself. I've read them and all and it hasn't damaged my sanity in anyway whatsoever, no sirree. However, if you want a summary... Unless you get into some conspiratorial thinking, it appears Downes had some ideas and put them into a showreel for a music production company in 1977. In 2019/20, he re-visited some of those ideas, sent them to Davison, and they wrote "The Ice Bridge" together. Downes says he has this 1977 showreel and I really can't see him making such a story up, so that solves that. Downes' idea, re-used by Downes.
We don't know why there is a 1978 Monkman piece for a music production company that is overly similar. Mystery remains over that. It's not hard to speculate. If you wish to speculate, it seems pertinent that Monkman says the whole album was recorded in 2 days and it's got another piece on it that sounds overly similar to an earlier Vangelis piece. I'm not certain speculating is that useful. This is a tangent, I can't see that it changes how we feel about "The Ice Bridge". Steve Nicks was accused of plagarism for the song "Sara". She was able to produce tapes pre-dating the complainant's timeline. Nicks said something like: "I'm not saying you didn't write your song but don't say that I didn't write my song." Perhaps words Downes would like to use?
Howe has said that the songs on the album were written in 2019/20. We now know some of Downes' ideas for "The Ice Bridge" were a lot older than that, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are other bits that have an older lineage, but broadly it appears this album is them today. What you think of the rest of the album, only time will tell.
Henry
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I think he has kind of acknowledged the optics are weird by addressing what has happened in his tweets. I don't think anyone at this point is questioning the weird optics.
Downes has given a clear explanation of the songwriting credit for "The Ice Bridge": his idea came first, and he re-visited it for the song. If you want to accuse him of lying, go for it. I mean, that would probably be libel, but that's your problem.
We don't have a clear explanation of the songwriting credit for "The Dawn of an Era", but that's probably not for Downes or Yes to give, and probably they're not able to give it because they don't know what it is. If you want an explanation for that, address your concerns to Monkman.
Henry
Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
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I just a song. A pretty decent song. As I said, I wish Genesis had the creativity and drive to produce new music. I'm happy Yes is doing it.
What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound (2112)
Hey, Henry, remember the other day when I said I didn't want to get into a debate with you because I had great respect for you? Since then, in both the Crimson thread and here, you've presented yourself as a bit of a jerk so never mind that, okay?
You just responded to me saying "Big fan of Downes, I give him the benefit of the doubt, but would like him to address the optics" with "If you want to accuse him of lying, go for it. I mean, that would probably be libel, but that's your problem."
You have no right, in light of shit like this, to ever even broach the subject of "clear communication." You have no interest in clear communication, clearly.
This thread is like a throwback to '90's Usenet. Fun times.
I didn't read Henry's responses that way at all. He was clear and objective to me.
No, I'm sorry, to be clear, he accused me of calling Geoff a liar for saying "IMO he should acknowledge the optics." Even better. Yeah, very objective.
I'm sorry that you think I'm being a jerk. I am not intending to be a jerk. I am perhaps a tad frustrated at some of this discussion. Not with you, but with the discussion in general, unfolding over multiple online discussion fora.
It seems to me that Downes has been clear about the situation as it pertains to "The Ice Bridge". It was not clear to me that you accepted what he said as being true when you said, "We don't have an explanation. We have a reiteration of Downes' claim to have written the music". Those words seemed to me to be casting doubt on what Downes said. Apologies if I misread you there. If you are not casting doubt on what Downes said, I withdraw my comment.
I suggest Downes did not merely re-iterate that he wrote the music: he provided an explanation for how something released in 2021 could be like something released in 1978, but still be his work originally. Answer: because it was his work in 1977, that he re-visited. That's what matters for the integrity of "The Ice Bridge".
Could you be more specific as to what sort of further comment you would like to "address the optics"? I acknowledge there is a remaining mystery around Energism, but for the reasons I gave earlier, I don't see how Downes/Yes can necessarily clear any of that up.
Henry
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I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.
Not to come off like a jerk myself, but addressing the weird optics of the situation would involve addressing the weird optics of the situation. I understand that he may be in no position to say anything. And if he can't well, he can't.
My point, ultimately is that "not being able to explain" is not an explanation. It's an explanation for a lack of an explanation, for sure.
Nothing libelous intended.
Sorry, I didn't see this addendum of yours until after I posted my last reply.
Do you see that there may be insurmountable difficulties with him saying anything about the Monkman track? I don't know what's going on, but Downes may know absolutely nothing about the Monkman track, this is the first he's heard of it. What should he do then? Rush to accuse Monkman of plagiarism? That wouldn't be the decent thing to do. It would seem polite and prudent to let Monkman speak about Monkman's affairs.
Downes is responsible for what he does, for his work, for "The Ice Bridge" and The Quest. He probably cannot speak for Francis Monkman's work, "The Dawn of an Era" and Energism. Clear communication is important, but it's also important not to speak for others when it is not your place to do so.
I do not know what Downes knows. I do not know what happened around "The Dawn of an Era". I think Downes has clarified what matters in terms of "The Ice Bridge". If the unaddressed optics are about "The Dawn of an Era", I am not surprised they remain unaddressed.
Henry
Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/
My comment was in an if-clause beginning, "If you want to accuse him of lying..." I said that because you seemed to be casting doubt on the veracity of Downes's comments, but I wasn't clear if you were or were not doing so. My apologies if I misinterpreted you there. I happily retract the whole thing.
Henry
Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/
Thank you for this clear and non-jerk-like clarification of what you were saying. If Downes is not in a position to say anything more, then it seems unfair to criticise someone for not doing what they can't do. I concur it remains an unsettling situation. I'm pretty sure this is not what he or the band wanted!
I hope we haven't talked over each other too much during this quick succession of posts.
Henry
Where Are They Now? Yes news: http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/wh_now.htm
Blogdegezou, the accompanying blog: http://bondegezou.blogspot.com/
If tomorrow someone put forth a YT clip of an old 1970/1 library record that basically laid out the entire skeleton of Roundabout in near flawless detail, then I'd say some very very interesting conversations with various lawyers would ensue.
Let's be real: The Ice Bridge isn't CTTE. It isn't 90125. It isn't even Talk. What little money is on the table is small enough that in the event there IS a misunderstanding and some corrections are needed, it might come down to literally one party pulling out their wallet and giving someone a few bucks and a handshake.
Oh but it's not the money, but about artistic integrity? Girl, please. This is Yes. Don't pull that thread.
Tempest in a teacup. It was fun watching the spinout for a while but man, things got weird and (at least from my outside perspective) personal WAY too quickly.
IMHO.
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
I have not criticized Geoff. Please stop twisting my words into something negative.
My point stands:
If Geoff is not in a position to explain, that's understandable. But not explaining because he's not in a position to explain is not an explanation. That's not a criticism, an accusation that he's lying, or libel.
There's still a Monkman track on YouTube with people commenting on it trashing Yes left and right. Until things are explained, the optics are bad for the band. That's a statement of fact, not a demand that the band explain or a criticism of them for not explaining.
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