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Thread: New Neal Morse band album

  1. #26
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Don’t know that I’d call them poorly chosen either. There’s only so many words in the English language.
    Poorly chosen because they are extremely close to well known songs. If they are originals, and I were him, I would have never considered those titles. No need to.
    I like the part where Icarus hijacks the Little Red Hen.

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  2. #27
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    If they are not covers, they are poorly chosen titles, and this discussion illustrates why. NMB knows their audience is musically literate, and would be confused, and why would you do that to your fans? Poor choice. Or actual covers. We still don’t know.

    There is a limited number of words, but an infinite number of ways in which to arrange them. Just call it “Troubled Water” if it’s not a cover. Just call it “Like a Bird.” Whatever.

    I will apologize if something about these songs demonstrates the necessary inevitability of their titles.
    Last edited by rdclark; 06-06-2021 at 02:42 AM.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interstellar View Post
    It must great to be a fan of such a prolific artist.
    I have a lot of respect for Neal's art, although I stopped following him around Momentum.
    I'll keep an open ear for this new NMB material. After all, I reconnected with the Flower Kings after having given up on them for more than ten years.
    I feel the same, Neil is a whirlwind of talent, at one point I had all the SB, NM, and Transatlantic albums, then it must have been around the time of Testimony 2 I suddenly od'd on his music and got rid of all of them apart from the first 4 Spocks which I still like, never want to hear any of it again- sorry.

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  4. #29
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I feel the same, Neil is a whirlwind of talent, at one point I had all the SB, NM, and Transatlantic albums, then it must have been around the time of Testimony 2 I suddenly od'd on his music and got rid of all of them apart from the first 4 Spocks which I still like, never want to hear any of it again- sorry.
    The diabetic coma was the last straw!
    I like the part where Icarus hijacks the Little Red Hen.

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  5. #30
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Meal Norse...its what Scrotum had for breakfast.

  6. #31
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    "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" is, in fact, a Simon & Garfunkel cover. I'm really hoping "Bird On A Wire" is not the Leonard Cohen song because that song is awful and Cohen is dreadfully overrated as a songwriter. Is that blasphemy here?
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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" is, in fact, a Simon & Garfunkel cover.
    This makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    I'm really hoping "Bird On A Wire" is not the Leonard Cohen song because that song is awful and Cohen is dreadfully overrated as a songwriter. Is that blasphemy here?
    Given that the Cohen song is actually "Bird On the Wire", I suspect that this is not a cover. "Bird on a Wire" is a fairly nondescript title anyway -- there was a Neville Brothers song with that title apparently, as well as a 1990 movie.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by rdclark View Post
    If they are not covers, they are poorly chosen titles, and this discussion illustrates why. NMB knows their audience is musically literate, and would be confused, and why would you do that to your fans? Poor choice. Or actual covers. We still don’t know.

    There is a limited number of words, but an infinite number of ways in which to arrange them. Just call it “Troubled Water” if it’s not a cover. Just call it “Like a Bird.” Whatever.

    I will apologize if something about these songs demonstrates the necessary inevitability of their titles.
    I'm still not convinced that "Bird On a Wire" is a cover of Leonard Cohen's "Bird On the Wire". But I guess we'll see!

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Poorly chosen because they are extremely close to well known songs. If they are originals, and I were him, I would have never considered those titles. No need to.
    I'd never heard of the Leonard Cohen song myself. Maybe it's a lot more well known than I thought, but it was not the first thing that came to my mind (rather, it was the Goldie Hawn and Mel Gibson movie).

  10. #35
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    I agree that “bird on a wire” is a more generic phrase. I might not have even been triggered by it if the “Bridge” title weren’t on the same list. It’s even possible that Cohen himself used “the” in order to distinguish his title from the generic usage.

    But “Bird on the Wire” is known by anyone who knows Cohen more than superficially. It’s among his most-covered songs. NMB had to know they were walking a thin line. Then again, Flying Colors didn’t flinch from re-using one of Pat Metheny’s most famous song titles.

    PS: The Cohen song is used in the Goldie Hawn movie, and apparently the movie title is based on the song title.

    PPS: The Neville Brothers track is also a cover of the Cohen song. It is a very very famous song.
    Last edited by rdclark; 06-07-2021 at 07:08 PM.
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  11. #36
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    Cohen is dreadfully overrated as a songwriter. Is that blasphemy here?
    Only among those with any sense.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by rdclark View Post
    The Neville Brothers track is also a cover of the Cohen song. It is a very very famous song.
    Maybe not as famous as you think it is. Not on the level of Bridge Over Troubled Water.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Maybe not as famous as you think it is.
    And yet both of your examples of non-Cohen uses of the phrase turned out to be directly based on it. The challenge may be to cite an example that's not Cohen-connected. Perhaps the NMB song will qualify?
    "I have not yet begun to procrastinate."

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by rdclark View Post
    And yet both of your examples of non-Cohen uses of the phrase turned out to be directly based on it. The challenge may be to cite an example that's not Cohen-connected. Perhaps the NMB song will qualify?
    My point is itís not near-universally known like Bridge Over Troubled Water is. Even people who donít know Simon and Garfunkel will still know of that song. I actually know some Leonard Cohen songs (not just Hallelujah) but admittedly not many.

    But arguments among prog fans on PE about song titles are probably not an accurate indicator of whether a song is poorly named or not. And if the album does have two cover songs on it ó who cares?

  15. #40
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    It's more famous than "Roundabout."
    "I have not yet begun to procrastinate."

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by rdclark View Post
    It's more famous than "Roundabout."
    Which is really not saying much. Thatís my point. This discussion only illustrates that some of us know that Leonard Cohen song and some of us donít.

  17. #42
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    It's saying that it's more famous than the song that launched a thousand threads on this forum, which represents the heart of the NMB fanbase. What if that tracklist had included "Roundabout?"
    "I have not yet begun to procrastinate."

  18. #43
    I suspect Neal feels he can use "Bridge over Troubled Waters" because it's in a Bible quote.

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. ... Then we come to an understanding that Christ died for us that we might not have to spend eternity separated from God because of our sin. He laid down His life and became that bridge over troubled waters for us.

  19. #44
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    To be clear, titles are not protected IP. Anybody can use any title. It's not a question of whether NMB has a right to use a title. They do. They could use the title of a famous anthem of prog for every song on their album if they wanted to.

    But there would be questions.
    "I have not yet begun to procrastinate."

  20. #45
    The opening track 'Do It All Again' seems fitting for Neal. Sums up succinctly how I feel about his composing and playing style. Its pretty much the same material slightly regurgitated in new forms. For fans of his style, this is probably a good thing! The guy is certainly prolific within his limited palette.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquatarkus View Post
    The opening track 'Do It All Again' seems fitting for Neal. Sums up succinctly how I feel about his composing and playing style. Its pretty much the same material slightly regurgitated in new forms. For fans of his style, this is probably a good thing! The guy is certainly prolific within his limited palette.
    Ha ha!!! As one of Neal's biggest cheerleaders I can say that you're not entirely wrong...

    As stated above - I will tolerate no Neal-bashing on this thread!!! (And yes, for fans of his style it is a wonderful thing!!!)
    Prog's Not Dead

  22. #47
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    A Morse, a Morse! My kingdom for a Morse!

  23. #48
    随缘 SRS's Avatar
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    Neal's an auto-buy for me so I'm certainly looking forward to this one. The last two NMB albums were stellar. I thought Sola Gratia was a step down and I'd rank it near the bottom of his solo offerings but that still had several great songs including a wonderful closing section. Couple of things lead me to think this will be somewhat different from Similitude and GA are that this really was more of a Band outing. Neal went into the sessions fairly light on demos since he had just finished Transatlantic and Gratia. So the other band members contributed quite a lot. And he also mentioned that when he wrote lyrics to this album it was right after he had done his podcast with Jon Anderson and he somehow felt Jon's influence in his writing, meaning I think more open or care free or something like that.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by rdclark View Post
    It's saying that it's more famous than the song that launched a thousand threads on this forum, which represents the heart of the NMB fanbase. What if that tracklist had included "Roundabout?"
    I'm not sure if that has any correlation, since bands/songs that generate threads on PE aren't necessarily a representation of the majority in the outside world. I don't recall seeing "Bird On the Wire" ever mentioned here until this thread -- which wasn't even about Leonard Cohen. So there might not be as much crossover as you're suggesting.

    That's all I'm saying. PE is a niche representation. People in the music industry (musicians, journalists, etc.) and fans of music from that period, as well as lots of other folks, are familiar with the song I'm sure. I asked my dad if he knew of that song a couple days ago, because I wondered if I had just been living under a rock or something. He didn't know it either, but then he's not a huge Leonard Cohen fan even though he grew up in the 60s and 70s.

    Actually, I can't even remember why we're arguing about this... Poorly chosen song titles I guess? There are plenty of famous songs that I've never heard, so this could just be one of them. But there's also the fact that I've been listening to Spock's Beard (and some Neal Morse, by association) for nearly two decades and had no idea there was a Leonard Cohen song called "Bird On the Wire", so it can't be that problematic can it?

  25. #50
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    I'm not talking about the outside world. And I'm not suggesting that this forum is a place to discuss Leonard Cohen.

    I'm saying that the typical prog fan is an adventurous and knowledgeable listener who knows many genres and artists, and that Leonard Cohen is well known to fans of nearly every kind of music. He's been covered by country, reggae, R&B, jazz, rock, folk, roots and mainstream artists, for over 50 years. It is absolutely stunning to me that anybody on this forum wouldn't know his work, and I doubt you'll find many others. No, I can't prove it, but neither can you. (This forum doesn't have a poll feature, does it?)

    But yeah, this subject has run its course. Peace.
    "I have not yet begun to procrastinate."

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