Question? Who were the beginners of Prog?

[Vic2012]

Prog music’s growth was an incremental process, only gaining shape when viewed from today’s vantage point. Hope that makes sense.

The whole post was excellent, and yes it makes sense. The same could be said about hard rock and heavy metal.

[Dana5140]

With all that being said, and, understanding the situation, well then, Ummmmmmmmmmm.

Is it possible to ask the Plan Administrator to redact the original question? It is clear to me that this interrogative is nothing other than a sophomoric sleight-of-hand. Asking what were the origins of Prog Rock does nothing other than expose the dilemma that Prog Rock lacks a constructive definition. You can’t talk about the origins of something that has no constructive definition. The question is innately & inherently intractable. That’s not fair.

And it begs a final question? For new members? How many stupid questions can be asked before your budgetary allowance is exhausted? Just trying to figure out when I am gonna run out of stamps…

Iluvatar, from my perspective, just keep asking. The truth is, we've been grappling with these same questions for as long as I have been posting here. And every thread that tries to define prog bogs down. For me, in the end, I don't care- I just like the music I like and that is good enough. I do have a lot of information and knowledge of the genre (and maybe 150 music books I've collected over the years including several seminal books on prog), which has of late been atomized into niches and sub-niches and sub-sub-niches, such as Japanese Zeuhl (Bondage Fruit, Koehenjiyaki, Ruins) , for example. I have my own take on how it started and what it is- James Gang, no, Jethro Tull, yes (even though they won a hard rock Grammie). Miles, no- he was really a leader in fusion, to my mind- but that is to my mind. I was there, back in the late 60s and early 70s, and watched it emerge and in fact blew up the first King Crimson cover to cover the full wall of my dorm room at Mich. State in 1971.

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#genre

Vic2012- that Touch record really is spectacularly good. I love it and it is so much more than simple psychedelic stuff.

[moecurlythanu]

I was there, back in the late 60s and early 70s, and watched it emerge and in fact blew up the first King Crimson cover to cover the full wall of my dorm room at Mich. State in 1971.

That was where the cool kids hung out.

[TheH]

As said before it all started with Manakin. Not only Prog but also Wave Punk and RIO

[Lopez]

Break through is different from progenitor. For early music that led to prog, I consider Touch a classic.

You beat me to it.

I'd also throw in BS&T's Child Is Father to the Man and the Left Banke as helping to pave the way.

[Digital_Man]

^ Let's face it there were several. Did anyone mention Family or the Zombies yet? If Left Banke can be menitoned I think the Zombie's "Odyssey and Oracle" is fair game. One band that interestingly probably doesn't get enough credit is Pink Floyd. Soft Machine, Caravan and VDGG are worth mentioning also especially the first two.

[Dana5140]

I would consider them all psychedelic at that point in time, not prog. I just listened to Odyssey and Oracle yesterday, oddly enough. Caravan as a more prog band was 1970- Wild Flowers were psych.

[Iluvatar]

^ The reason that no encompassing definition has emerged for Progressive Rock is that there are many subgenres that are universally accepted as belonging to the Progressive Rock genre, (I'm not talking about the PA mishmash) and there is no definition that can be constructed that accurately applies to all of those subgenres. If you simply apply a set of characteristics that apply to all of the subgenres, they would not be specific enough to accurately differentiate between the subgenres, or even other types of music.

Your intent is noble, but many Senor Quixotes have assayed the challenge over the years, without success.

This is my first try at using quotes - prob'y won't work - wha'ever. Your last sentence is very depressing - Je vais pleurer. Mebbe? There are TOO many subgenres? Mebbe we are suffering from a Prog Rock headache? Honestly, I love Camel. But? Calling them Prog? Does everything have to be Prog? Answer is yes over @ PA. But wait a sec? We have the Canterbury Scene: Fairport Convention, Sandy Denny, Caravan ("Pink & Grey"), and Soft Machine (I have a real hard time calling these cadets "Prog"). Doesn't mean I don't like `em. I like Traffic too!

[dpt3]

Prog (as we know it) was partially developed by Billy Ritchie and his band 123 (who later became Clouds.) They had a coveted headlining residency at the legendary Marquee Club in London in 1967. Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson and David Bowie were all witnesses to this band and what they were doing. Even Brian Epstein was impressed as he signed them on the spot to a management deal. There can be no doubt about their influence. Too bad they are ignored by most historians.

What's amazing is how completely they disappeared. You'd think even if their albums weren't as successful as expected, the members would have gone on to join other bands. You'd especially think Ritchie would've been in demand as keyboard player.

[Iluvatar]

That was where the cool kids hung out.

Not only there. University of Dayton, OH `76-`80. Haha
Saw Rush there. Geddy was busy learning how to play a synth. Neil was out of this world. Had a backstage and checked out there warm-up before the concert. Holy Moly! The warm-up was better than the concert. Neil had to be one of the best percussionists of the 20th century.

[moecurlythanu]

My first concert Rush/Golden Earring 1978 in Toodleedoo Sports Arena. Hot little hat box it was.

[Iluvatar]

@Teddy & @Dana5140

"And, last but not least, Miles Davis was pulling jazz in a new direction."

"Break through is different from progenitor. "

Thanks for that. I masticated over those 2 statements for about 48HRS. (No, there were no injuries)

I wanted to circle back on my comment about bricks and mortar. But first I want to comment on Teddy's comment - I thought long and hard about this (which is about 10 HRS).

If? (big if!) If we were to consider Miles Davis to be prog, then (as an extrapolation of that logic) I would suggest that Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and (my fav) Ravel (his Bolero was used in ELP, remember - Abaddon's Bolero?) also be considered to be prog artists. Latter dude was late to the show. (I heard somewhere that there were riots in the streets or the bar when Bolero released)

Early Prog was heavily influenced by classical music. Current prog is so diluted that it doesn't make sense to me anymore. Wait a sec, checking on something: yup! There it is: the Strawbs. They are in the PA list! I talked to David (Cousins) back in 2006 at a small venue in Annapolis, MD. He said that his band trajectory was going from folk to electronic folk. Prog? No! We're not prog; we're electronic folk! Guy almost hit me! Holy cow! Here is the band creator saying that the Strawbs are NOT prog@! Holy cow! What does that say???

Now I want to circle back on the bricks and mortar comment. People mix mortar, people build bricks, other people build brick and mortar buildings. Miles Davis (and John Coltrane and Thelonius Monk) assembled some bodacious brick & mortar buildings as Jazz greats. No doubt. But? Guess what happened? There were a lot of bricks leftover.

And those leftover bricks found themselves in other brick & mortar buildings built by bands in both Prog and Jazz Fusion (RTF is obv, yes? oh mon dieu). I would suggest that there are a lot of leftover bricks from BBM&R that find themselves in several Prog bands as well.

OK. But that does that imply (i.e., the implication does not hold) that the originators of those dang bricks obeyed the genre classification of those future brick & mortar buildings (bands). I.e, they were not Prog - they were classical musicians or jazz musicians.

A quiet moment on the definition of progenitor: there are several. The one I like best is "ancestor". From which further things come. Works for me.

With that logical calculus in place, the statement that: "Break through is different from progenitor. " makes sense. A prog rock band can be both a progenitor and a break-through (though, that would be rare, any band draws from past experiences). But, Miles as well as BBM&R were progenitors of Prog. Were they Prog? Not imho.

Is this making sense?

(crap! Am I now down to 3 stupid questions left? Darn it!)

[Rarebird]

The title of this threat brings this to my mind.

[antlermagick]

My first concert Rush/Golden Earring 1978 in Toodleedoo Sports Arena. Hot little hat box it was.

Oh I would kill to have been there! What did they play?

[Dana5140]

If? (big if!) If we were to consider Miles Davis to be prog, then (as an extrapolation of that logic) I would suggest that Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and (my fav) Ravel (his Bolero was used in ELP, remember - Abaddon's Bolero?) also be considered to be prog artists. Latter dude was late to the show. (I heard somewhere that there were riots in the streets or the bar when Bolero released)

Iluvatar, this argument has been made many times. And using that same logic. But if we limit ourselves to the modern era, coming up with a discrete example of "prog" remains hard to do as a genre. That's really the point, to categorize a style so that we might say, this is what I like. So, maybe Strawbs do not consider themselves prog. Magma does not consider itself prog, either, but boy, in my book there is no more prog a band than Magma. So, there is a difference between being progressive (as Beethoven was) and being prog (as King Crimson undoubtedly was). There have been threads on this site about whether or not Billy Joel is prog (because one song fits the model), Elton John (Funeral for a Friend), etc. Neither are prog, of course. Both are singer songwriters. But they each had songs with elements of prog in them.

Miles is not prog, nor was Coltrane. Both were geniuses who advanced music well beyond where it was. Coltrane was so advanced 50+ years later few have caught up to him- he was progressive in the extreme, but it is not the same as prog.

[Vic2012]

Heard the rest of Touch. Goddamn it's prog. I'm not hearing any jazz or blues, just prog. I wanna hear it again.

[Iluvatar]

Amen. I think it is time that I stop asking THIS stupid question (Funeral for a Friend was good wasn't it? - I loved it. Hated Billy though, like Vincent Crane, I was always asking myself: when are you gonna shut up?). I sure am glad David Cousins didn't punch me in the face! That would stink!

I think the issue with Magma is b/c they are a bunch of French guys! Who gives credence to some stupid French guys after all? That's totally stupid (joking and laughing all the way to the bathroom)! These guys don't get NO street cred. (oh mon dieu, c'est tant pis!) Oh btw, and, this kind of important? What is your take on Nil? Crap! They are also French. "Quarante Jours sur le Sinai". These guys are really good, I like `em a lot. And I ain't call `em prog or o/w - so there!

Amen on Miles & John - WAY, WAY ahead of their time. These dudes did some serious spade work. So did Thelonius Monk (Jeff Beck and Jam Hammer covered one of his songs on their live album - awesome!!! "Earth in Search of a Sun" is worth it as well). Their dang bricks are all over the sphere - no doubt. So are BBM&R. Their bricks are sitting in so many buildings of early Prog bands. Did you ever get John Mahavishnu's and Carlos's repeat on a "Love Supreme"? It is well worth the bucks.

Plse attend. I am following your advice on the Youtube directions. I may succeed. (Bull crap; it'll probably an epic fail) I am closing my eyes, crossing my fingers, and holding my breath...

[Iluvatar]

Heard the rest of Touch. Goddamn it's prog. I'm not hearing any jazz or blues, just prog. I wanna hear it again.

Then hear it again. This stuff was solid. Thanks Dana!

[Iluvatar]

The title of this threat brings this to my mind.

Yeh. But! Oh no you got it! My bad! I thought you threw up Questions/Answers. A/Q was my intended response. Love you your sense of humour. No, I ain't no Brit.

[Iluvatar]

Hey! I think I figured it out! As a total non-poster idiot, I think I may have solved the riddle! Thanks Dana!

I think this is the live version of Eruption (Hope it is - this is my 1st try).

Here is the youtube link to the studio version (especially since I may have botched this effort):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvHWl7Bx9kw

In the 1st link, attend to the 1:18 mark for something that sounds like Steve Howe (YES), and the 2:49 mark for Keith Emerson (ELP).

In the 2nd link: listen to the 0:31 mark for Howe, and the 1:46 mark for Keith.

From where I am standing? Focus launched in 1970, this stuff is from 1971. ELP launched in `72. And while YES launched in `69, the YES album didn't hit the streets `til `71. My assertion is that there are a whole lot of bricks from Focus that have landed in the Brick & Mortar buildings of both YES and ELP. Just sayin'...

These guys get no street cred and are largely ignored. Also, Dana? I don't get the psych stuff. They didn't start until `70 - you were referring to `68-`69. I don't understand. But anyhooooo, thanks for your help! Owe you a beer!

Here is a cut & paste of some of the comments. Now wait a sec? Not all of these guys are idiots - some of this actually sticks to the wall!

To wit:


gazzarrr666
gazzarrr666
8 months ago
...and let's not leave out Pierre van der Linden, folks. An incredibly underrated drumer and still playing a storm in the band till this very day. Not at all shabby for a septuagenerian!
6
crimsonrush
crimsonrush
3 years ago
Akkerman was way more influential than ever given credit for.
50
Leo
Leo
6 years ago
Most underrated band ever; people only know Hocus Pocus (wich is actually a great song too).
84
Sonia Mota
Sonia Mota
5 years ago
Hocus Pocus was groundbreaking nothing sounded like that but Eruption no doubt is my favorite track, oh wow this is gasmic, orgasmic, eargasmic exciting brilliant! xxxx
97
Robbert Jan van Trooijen
Robbert Jan van Trooijen
2 years ago
In 1973 Akkerman was voted 'Best Guitarist in The World' by the readers of the UK magazine, Melody Maker. So not entirely ignored - and the British had some good guitarists themselves at that time!
17
paulwall1981
paulwall1981
10 years ago
Focus are one of those rear thing. A band that is still imporiant long after they were famous. Something that modern bands will never be like. Focus are brilliant and this video form the 1970's proves this. First class stuff.
3
arturorodriguezprado
arturorodriguezprado
6 years ago
FOCUS IS ANOTHER WORLD!
10
KCT
KCT
10 years ago
Saw them live - twice - in Glasgow, millions of years ago. Every one of these guys was a top-class musician back then.



Saw Jan Ak. in Glasgow about ten years ago - he looked older but his talent hadn't aged a bit, not a bit. I was moved by the music and the nostalgia.

God, what has happened to 'music' today?
9
Killmetbh
Killmetbh
5 years ago
Jan Akkerman is a legendary god of 70s rock and roll guitar. He wrote some of the most beautiful guitar pieces of their time.
32
Allan Groombridge
Allan Groombridge
1 year ago
Hats off as well for the brilliant Bass playing of Bert Ruiter. Superb!
19
quint555
quint555
11 years ago
Tommy is like an angel riding his golden bike into your ear, gently touching your eardrum with his velvet gloves
1
lenskap
lenskap
7 years ago
A very underrated band.
24
ajb695
ajb695
7 months ago
I didn't know a live recording of Eruption even existed. This, folks, is jamming in its highest form: four musicians who KNOW each other's styles inside and out, riffing and handing off without a hitch, timing to a fault----just a wonder to see. Thanks for posting this!
2
Al Schuppe
Al Schuppe
5 years ago
Thijs - a genius musician!
18
Walter Sobchak
Walter Sobchak
3 years ago
these boys were so far ahead of their time, a genius band
10
Flash001USA
Flash001USA
7 years ago
God I hear so many bands here from Santana to Pink Floyd and even some flavors of Dream Theater here. These guy's were sooo underrated.
65
Lynn Claughton
Lynn Claughton
9 years ago
Akkerman was and remains one of the great ones on guitar....What an amazing solo on this. this!!!!!!!! These band was a body of talent many missed out on!! Where do you such musicianship? ...
2
chrisart7
chrisart7
9 years ago
This Dec., 1972 video is from the UK television show, "The Old Grey Whistle Test," as are similar videos on Youtube featuring Focus playing "Hocus Pocus," "Sylvia," and "Anonymous II" (with the walls of speakers behind the band). This particular song is an excerpt of "Eruption" which is:

Pupillae

Tommy

Pupillae

The Bridge



The video cuts out just before the band went into "Hocus Pocus" (then "Sylvia," and a reprise of "Hocus Pocus").
3


I will leave it at this point. Imho, Focus kicked some major butt. Who gives a rats @$$ if they were "psych"? They sure were building some badacious bricks...

Later,
Iluv

[Iluvatar]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On the 2nd second link drag the button over to the 18:00 minute mark.
I believe that I have made my case. Your honor? The defense rests...

[moecurlythanu]

At least you could understand Svetonio.

[Zeuhlmate]

At least you could understand Svetonio.

[Dana5140]

From where I am standing? Focus launched in 1970, this stuff is from 1971. ELP launched in `72. And while YES launched in `69, the YES album didn't hit the streets `til `71. My assertion is that there are a whole lot of bricks from Focus that have landed in the Brick & Mortar buildings of both YES and ELP. Just sayin'...

These guys get no street cred and are largely ignored. Also, Dana? I don't get the psych stuff. They didn't start until `70 - you were referring to `68-`69. I don't understand. But anyhooooo, thanks for your help! Owe you a beer!

My bad, Iluvatar- I got Focus confused with Golden Earring. I mean, anyone could right? GE was a psych band long before Radar Love came out.

Now, where do we put United States of America?



Or Silver Apples?



Or even Ultimate Spinach:



Also prog progenitors. And is Dark Star prog or psych?

[moecurlythanu]

Oh I would kill to have been there! What did they play?

From setlist.fm -

Rush

Toledo Sports Arena, December 3, 1978

Anthem
A Passage to Bangkok
By-Tor & The Snow Dog
Xanadu
Something for Nothing
The Trees
Cygnus X-1
Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres Part I: Prelude
Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres Part II: Apollo
Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres Part III: Dionysus
Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres Part IV: Armageddon
Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres Part V: Cygnus
Cygnus X-1 Book II: Hemispheres Part VI: The Sphere
Closer to the Heart
Circumstances
A Farewell to Kings
La Villa Strangiato
2112 Part I: Overture
2112 Part II: The Temples of Syrinx
2112 Part III: Discovery
2112 Part IV: Presentation
2112 Part VI: Soliloquy
2112 Part VII: Grand Finale
Working Man
Bastille Day
In the Mood
Drum Solo

Not sure that the drum solo came last. Might have been before "In The Mood." Too long ago and stoned to say for sure. As for Golden Earring's set, none on the setlist site for that date, but there is for 3 other dates on the tour. Those show 6 songs at one, 9 at another, and 11 at another. The 11 seems like it might be too much for an opener, the others are possible, but a wide range of songs appear on the 2 listed. Suffice to say that they played "Just Like Vince Taylor." "Candy's Goin' Bad," and "Radar Love."