Question? Who were the beginners of Prog?

[Iluvatar]

@ Top Cat
Yes indeed, several of my colleagues told me to tread VERY carefully on this site circa 2004-2008. Their advise was to READ ONLY - do NOT POST, do NOT REPLY. Just shut your mouth and learn. These guys will tear you to shreds!
Mebbe, things have changed? Dunno. I notice that you joined in 2018. Maybe this site welcomes people seeking knowledge and permits idiots asking stupid questions now? That would be me.
I just want to learn about where "prog" was and is. It is about learning. That's it. I doubt I will ever be able to contribute meaningfully - but - I hope to learn a lot. That's good enough for me.
BTW, I would like to thank the august audience for not tearing me to shreds - I am just learning...

To amplify your comment on about finding elements of "prog" in earlier musical works - I agree. To wit: Ed Sullivan show. Mommas & Poppas were on. But so was a jazz guy called: Henry Jones & his orchestra - boys were totally kickin'. I could see it in the music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Jones

[Dana5140]

Wow! That is some pretty good stuff. I got an inkling of the Beatles @ the 18:00 minute mark. But? At the end of the day? I just can't see how listening to "Sgt Pepper's" influenced them to produce this - that's amazing. That is one heck of a crossover! Btw, never heard of these guys before. Did some research. Found `em here:

https://www.amazon.com/Touch/dp/B006...%2C261&sr=1-14

This is an icredible Progressive Rock album that was released before this was an everyday term
Reviewed in the United States on August 18, 2019
Verified Purchase
Ever wonder what happened to the '60s band, "Don & the Goodtimes"? Don Gallucci and his band were direct competition to the Kingsmen, Paul Revere & The Raiders and other Pacific NW bands that toured up and down the West Coast. But as Don said in an interview, "we heard "Sgt Pepper" and realized that we had to change to be relevant." This is the result. I originally bought this LP when it came out in 1969 because I liked anything unusual and finding an album that opened from the front and had an orange obi-like paper band around it fit the ticket. The music inside though blew me away, because I had never heard or knew what "progressive rock" was until I put the needle on. Each song on this LP is different - from hard rock, to night club crooning, to music that Zappa could put his name on to just plain rock'n rool. All were expertly crafted and recorded and of course supervised by Mr. Gallucci who later went on to make his name as a producer. I now have a rather beat-up copy of the LP, and now the extended CD which is sonically perfect. Try this. Just remember that this was very ahead-of-it's-time when released in 1969.

Hey! It's only $90 used. Man, that's stiff - better check my music budget out (crap...).

2 questions? Usage of terms: break through and progenitor. How do you view the differences between the two. I kinda think a successful break through becomes a (future) progenitor. I view YES as a progenitor - after all consider these 2 bands: Iluvatar and Marillion.

Other question: I don't do social media stuff, how in the world did you get that YouTube video to post up with a picture link? I was thinking of posting a YouTube of Focus since no one seemed to consider them "break through" (although the progenitor aspect shows up in YES (Steve Howe) and ELP (Emerson)).

Thanks for posting this. I really like what these guys are doing! Big change from the Kingsmen, don't you think?

Glad you enjoyed Touch- a great band, well ahead of their time.

The posting is easy, Iluvatar, just use the film-looking link (Insert Video Link) above, which opens a box into which you can copy the url. Or you can just use html to do so. And this site has no sub boxes, which is why the quote link is useful, so you know which post you are responding to. As to Focus, in their early days, they were really a psych band, circa 1968-9; it was a while before they moved more toward prog.

Some would argue J Coltrane is prog, because he was progressive, but this gets into the weeds of the argument as to what prog is and we do not want to go there. :-)

For me, the question is, Magma? :-)

[Iluvatar]

@NogbadTheBad:
You caught me. Excellent catch. This will be the 7th time I have been caught abusing the term RIO (which is why I put it in quotes). The previous 6 times my colleagues lambasted me on abusing the term. Upon explanation to me, it was clear I had no idea what I was talking about.

When I said "RIO", what I really was talking about was a technique used by both Procol and King Crimson when they would construct a sequence of tones/notes, that, when put together in a sequence was totally atonal. At it worked - fabulously! I think Todd Rundgren also did it off his double album "Todd" (this dude also doubled as a master recording engineer; guy was a genius as a recording engineer).

So what term do we use for the atonal sequences (we're not talking time signatures here - just a blast of music that doesn't make sense) that these guys used? Whatever term is adopted I'll go with. I don't want to get spanked on misusing an accepted term anymore.

Wow! This is interesting. After all the warnings about posting on this site? I haven't been killed yet! Gotta say, I approached this site with a whole lot of trepidation (aka I was sweating bullets). It is too bad that I won't be needing to clip my nails for another month...

[thedunno]

^^^^^^ Shees, relax a bit.

Ian was not trying to cancel you. He was just stating a simple fact.

[antlermagick]

Clearly, prog rock was invented by Jamiroquai circa 2002 AD.

[NogbadTheBad]

You're probably better off referring to the atonal bands as Avant Rock. The RIO term has been broadened to cover a genre of bands playing in this dissonant atonal rehearsal intensive music. A new version of the RIO festival started in '07 and used the name with the blessing of Chris Cutler (Henry Cow). So you are fine using it as a broad genre term just not as stating the bands outside the original 5 were originators.

[moecurlythanu]

If Svetty was here, he would have the answers.

[thedunno]

If Svetty was here, he would have the answers.

Together with the 'proof' of a thousand embedded YT videos

[Munster]

If Svetty was here, he would have the answers.

Svetty sprang to my mind as well

[Munster]

I don't know if it is a coincidence but there have been three new entrants to PE in April, all with quick posts (and two enquiring about the origins of prog rock). I am beginning to sense a wind-up but I may just be a cynical bastard.

[moecurlythanu]

^ I don't think it's anything other than new members starting conversation around topics that they're curious about. Nothing wrong with that.

[NogbadTheBad]

Even if it's a wind up its a fun conversation.

[miamiscot]

Prog (as we know it) was partially developed by Billy Ritchie and his band 123 (who later became Clouds.) They had a coveted headlining residency at the legendary Marquee Club in London in 1967. Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson and David Bowie were all witnesses to this band and what they were doing. Even Brian Epstein was impressed as he signed them on the spot to a management deal. There can be no doubt about their influence. Too bad they are ignored by most historians.

[NogbadTheBad]

Prog (as we know it) was partially developed by Billy Ritchie and his band 123 (who later became Clouds.) They had a coveted headlining residency at the legendary Marquee Club in London in 1967. Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson and David Bowie were all witnesses to this band and what they were doing. Even Brian Epstein was impressed as he signed them on the spot to a management deal. There can be no doubt about their influence. Too bad they are ignored by most historians.

Good call.

[moecurlythanu]

Good call.

Agreed.

[Top Cat]

Glad you enjoyed Touch- a great band, well ahead of their time.

The posting is easy, Iluvatar, just use the film-looking link (Insert Video Link) above, which opens a box into which you can copy the url. Or you can just use html to do so. And this site has no sub boxes, which is why the quote link is useful, so you know which post you are responding to. As to Focus, in their early days, they were really a psych band, circa 1968-9; it was a while before they moved more toward prog.

Other question: I don't do social media stuff, how in the world did you get that YouTube video to post up with a picture link? I was thinking of posting a YouTube of Focus since no one seemed to consider them "break through" (although the progenitor aspect shows up in YES (Steve Howe) and ELP (Emerson)).

One other thing regarding posting quotes on this site(and it's a quite common option on most forums) is the ability to post multiple quotes from a thread. Simply click on the icon in the right bottom corner with a plus.
Continue on to the next persons post and do the same, and when you are ready to quote the last person, click on Reply with Quote.

You will then have multiple quotes and can comment on each of them. You can downsize the post by right clicking and highlighting the section you wish deleted, leaving only a portion of the post you wish quoted.

[Garden Dreamer]

I am beginning to sense a wind-up but I may just be a cynical bastard.

We're not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays...

[Rufus]

The Nice released the first fully fledged prog album!

[rockcup]

Don Shinn a major influence for Keith Emerson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_tahRFZgMM&t=0s

[Digital_Man]

I agree about 123/clouds. They don't get the respect they deserve and no doubt paved the way for the Nice and many other early progressive bands. Apparently, however, their albums didn't really reflect the experimentation of their live performances. They actually performed a very early version of America before the song was even released by Simon and Garfunkel. Their live version had more in common with the later version by Yes though.

[Iluvatar]

I wanted to circle back on The Nice. I did not include them in my original list.
My collection of them (5 CDs) were a real disappointment (those were the 1st 5 albums). Mebbe I had too high expectations? Dunno. What is your take???

Post coming - oh dear lord...

[Iluvatar]

Do you have links or resources for 123/clouds??? I am interested. Never heard of `em before/ Plse attend a post upload.

[Iluvatar]

@OP (yeah, me)

Now this is disconcerting. I would like to apologize up front for this. I suffer from a mental defect. I always think that I am quick-witted. Truth? I am neither (Einstein said something about this – had to do with the definition of insanity).

I have been digesting your kind and very tactful responses over the past 2 days – holy Cow! You gentlemen are certainly that!

So, the upshot is that Prog Rock does not possess an adequate definition. Got it – in spades. Tant Pis.

Now the past decade is making more sense to me. I want to relate a story – please be patient.

Now, there were these 2 work colleagues with which I had a Q&A for the past decade. The discussion always centered on rock bands and the question never changed! Holy cow! At the end of each Q&A, I would wonder: what the heck is up with that? It was only later that I learned that they were members of the PE Forum. Now things are starting to make sense to me.

Prog rock lacks a suitable definition for use. And, a key contention point is the difference between “progressive” and “Prog Rock”. This also forks back into the difference between a progenitor and a ground-breaker – due to the comment of one of the established members. Apparently, this is a noxious question. I would like to recount my conversations with my colleagues – I think this might help a bit. I want to re-order the conversations from easy to hard to see the progression. Here goes (close your eyes).

Example 1: The James Gang “Yer Album”:

So, the questions were: “Is BlueBird” progressive? Is it Prog Rock?”. My answer was simple. That is a very progressive song – the guitar licks are so new and cool. Prog Rock – No. Our consensus was 100%.

Example 2: Spirit “12 Dreams…”

Was “Mr Skin” or “When I Touch You” progressive? Oh, hail yes! Very cool stuff. Was that Prog Rock? Now way. It was great rock. 100% again. Oh, btw, don’t stand too close to the latter song; it’s gonna leave a scar.

Example 3: Jethro Tull (now things get sticky)

The argument centered on whether or not “AquaLung” was Prog Rock or not. We were split. I argued that they were certainly progressive in their rock album. They went to Prog Rock. But we were unanimous on “A Passion Play” (my favorite). But here is a case where the band could have 2 feet in different ponds: 1) rock, 2) Prog Rock.

Example 4: YES (yup YES)

Consensus was that early YES was Prog Rock, but then we argued about “90125”. (There is a technical issue about the 1st 2 albums of YES; it is arguable until you get to “Astral Traveler”). I had 90125 on album, but I did not buy back it on CD. My rationale? This stuff is “glam (glamor) rock”. If I want to listen to glam rock (my attention span is about 23 minutes and 13 seconds), I could listen to J Jett instead. Look, “Owner of a Lonely Heart” is glam, imho. Here is another band with 2 feet in different ponds.

But you know what? We were in consensus 90% of the time. How in the world did we manage that? And though our discussions were passionate, we walked away without anger. Nobody got trucked; our self esteems were intact.

But this was a key factor. When we discussed this, it was always our gut that led us to our decisions! We were completely absent of a litmus test or a secret decoder ring – it was our gut!

Last example – and I think it is poignant wrt to the progenitor comment:

Example 5: Miles Davis (“Bitches Brew”) (this is from here, not from my colleagues)

Is Miles progressive? Oh, hail yes!! Is he Prog Rock? No, imho. Gut: dude was a jazz trumpeter by all measures. But here is the nexus of the issue: progressive vs Prog Rock.


I thought about this a bit. Let me draw an analogy: people who make bricks and mortar and people who build brick and mortar buildings. You see? You can build bricks and make mortar. But then builders come in and take your product and build a brick & mortar building. Miles made a whole lot of brick and mortar. Prog Rock as well as Jazz Fusion built the brick-and-mortar buildings. Do you see where I am going with this? I think this is my best answer to the progenitor and break-through question.

But? At the end of the day? I could not call Miles Davis Prog Rock. Sorry man – no insult intended – just my gut talking here…

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What is drastically needed is a formulaic definition of Prog Rock. This is a very hard undertaking for sure.
Some recommendations?

I don’t know if any of you gentlemen have ever been bored enough to read either the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution. But if you have or you try – be forewarned.

In reading either of these “defining” documents you come away with a couple of bad tastes is your mouth. 1) What in the heck were these idiots trying to say? I didn’t get any of that, and 2) who was their intended audience? Look, I am a reasonably educated man. I can’t manage to negotiate the Constitution w/o having to do a gut-check on what I am reading. It reads like a James Joyce novel for pete’s sakes! This document reads like it was trying to be really, really important – like as if we were trying to impress France.

Let’s not do that. If a definition of Prog Rock is done – it needs to be readable. Use language that can communicate to everyone. If you have to write while dragging your knuckles on the ground – so be it. Because, the end goal is about communication.

An example: “Prog Rock can be characterized by eclectic ambience with significant time signatures on the bass with additional maneuverings by the guitar pushing the highest chords”

No one is going to understand what you just said. In writing this definition, throw away your highly esteemed knowledge and write it so the common man can understand. Use examples (even sound track samples) & modifiers of your adjectives (sometimes called adverbs). Don’t be hoy-peloy! Be real. That is very important. I would be willing to do some spade work on this.

Not having a crisp definition of Prog Rock only generates arguments. People’s feelings get hurt and there is unnecessary anger. I think the functional thing to do is to develop a document that states firmly what Prog Rock and what it isn’t. It’s a line in the sand. Will there be gray areas? Sure! But at least a line is drawn. This would be a great accomplishment.
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With all that being said, and, understanding the situation, well then, Ummmmmmmmmmm.

Is it possible to ask the Plan Administrator to redact the original question? It is clear to me that this interrogative is nothing other than a sophomoric sleight-of-hand. Asking what were the origins of Prog Rock does nothing other than expose the dilemma that Prog Rock lacks a constructive definition. You can’t talk about the origins of something that has no constructive definition. The question is innately & inherently intractable. That’s not fair.


And it begs a final question? For new members? How many stupid questions can be asked before your budgetary allowance is exhausted? Just trying to figure out when I am gonna run out of stamps…

[moecurlythanu]

^ The reason that no encompassing definition has emerged for Progressive Rock is that there are many subgenres that are universally accepted as belonging to the Progressive Rock genre, (I'm not talking about the PA mishmash) and there is no definition that can be constructed that accurately applies to all of those subgenres. If you simply apply a set of characteristics that apply to all of the subgenres, they would not be specific enough to accurately differentiate between the subgenres, or even other types of music.

Your intent is noble, but many Senor Quixotes have assayed the challenge over the years, without success.

[Vic2012]

Break through is different from progenitor. For early music that led to prog, I consider Touch a classic.



After that, Yes and King Crimson, with ITCOTCK the breakthrough.

I'm about half way through this record now. It's pretty damn good, and very Prog.