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Thread: New Footage - Genesis Live in Bataclan France

  1. #26
    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Super stuff. Only gripes are (a) the almost total disinterest in filming Hackett; (b) the tendency to stop filming when it really gets going instrumentally. The film crew seems interested in Gabriel at the expense of the others. Not uncommon. Still, great footage, and cool to see a lot of previously unseen extras. Evidently access was provided to the original reels and tapes. I hope other Pop 2 footage will be given this treatment.
    IMO the film crew are following the band the way the audience would have: all attention on Gabriel first, with the others a distant second (Phil ranks #2 of course -- the French seemed besotted with drummers back then! )

    I know he had dabbled with it before this, but this appears to be the start of PG's full embrace of costume and theatrics. Notice him mentioning Alice Cooper and Bowie's influence in the interview. But you can kind of see why the band eventually pushed back on his antics, considering how much attention he was getting above the other four.
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  2. #27
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    ^^^^Peter was just the most charismatic performer in the band. Did you hear the audience chanting, "Peter, Peter, Peter" instead of Genesis?
    Last edited by mozo-pg; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:30 PM.
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    Guide to 1970s Rock Music Camerawork:

    Try to show the lead singer as much as possible even during instrumental sections.
    When the keyboardist is playing, show the drummer.
    When the guitarist is playing, show the keyboardist.
    When the above is not possible, show the guitar player who's strumming.
    Well, what you're talking about is less a matter of "camerawork" and more about the director, who was in charge of the edit. Apparently being clueless about music is a prerequisite to have any kind of job directing job on TV involving music. It's the director who makes those kind of decisions. They tend to focus on whoever's singing lead, and whoever happens to be "the cute one" or who's doing something visually exciting. Hence, footage of The Who always has lots of shots of Keith Moon nearly annihilating this drums (if it's an actual live clip) or half assed shots of Townshend doing windmills or leaping in the air or whatever (and it's half assed because instead of having one guy's only job it is to shoot Pete, it's someone whos' hearing in his headset, "PAN LEFT! PAN LEFT" and he does just as Townshend's done doing whatever it was that looked cool).

    They also tend to not be able to tell the difference between a Fender bass and a guitar, so when there's a guitar solo, they show the bassist. Or if there's two guitarists, they show the guitarist who's playing, not the one playing the solo.

    In the case of Genesis, you have had the added the problem of the band being...well, boring to watch. Gabriel and sometimes Rutherford were the only ones who stood, and Hackett and Banks aren't exactly the most visually dynamic performers. That's the thing you have to underestand about these things, the directors aren't taking the perspective of "Oh, the fans are gonna wanna see what the musicians are doing with their fingers". The director is thinking, "I have to show something that's exciting to watch for the audience in general, just the musicians or fans of this particular band". Hence, the focus on Peter with maybe Phil getting a little more coverage than the other three, because he's at least thrashing away a drumkit (though not nearly as exciting as, say, Keith Moon).

    But you want to talk about TV editing, I still say the worst was Motorhead's appearance on The Young Ones, back in 1984. During the middle of Ace Of Spades, where Phil Campbell and Wurzel trade solos back and forth, there's not one single shot of either guitarist WHILE he's soloing. You only ever see the guy who's playing rhythm guitar at any given time! It's like the guy was trying, but couldn't differentiate which guitarist was soloing at any given time.

  4. #29
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    BUT, SERIOUSLY, given that concert filming was in its infancy on both of these, I would call them both amazing and entertaining footage.....
    I would add that if you're not aware ahead of time of what's going to happen a few seconds in advance, you're totally surprised and will not able to anticipate your filming.

    Ditto for the sound and lights in a concert: if your band has a complex instrumental scheme, if you don't have someone warning the soundboard a few seconds ahead that the fulte or guitar solo is coming up, he'll be late on it ... or even miss it completely. the guy worrying about the lights will also liškely miss putting the spot on the soloist if he doesn't know ahead and worse, if he can't hear it because the soundboard doesn't twist the knobs in his favor.

    I've stood many times right behind the mix board to warn the sound & light men with my buddies' bands. I was getting creative with the use of colours on some tracks' ambiances. You can work wonders with only the four main colours like red, blue, green & yellow.

    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Super stuff. Only gripes are (a) the almost total disinterest in filming Hackett; (b) the tendency to stop filming when it really gets going instrumentally. The film crew seems interested in Gabriel at the expense of the others. Not uncommon. Still, great footage, and cool to see a lot of previously unseen extras. Evidently access was provided to the original reels and tapes. I hope other Pop 2 footage will be given this treatment.
    Mind you, I can somewhat understand why Hackett is somewhat ignored by the film crew. He's not really photogenic behing his black rimmed glasses with coke bottle lenses (look in the interview to see how "odd" he looks), hiding behind in beard and long hair dangling in front of his face, furthermore he's sitting throughout the whole set (at least Rutherford stands up once in a while).
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    They also tend to not be able to tell the difference between a Fender bass and a guitar, so when there's a guitar solo, they show the bassist. Or if there's two guitarists, they show the guitarist who's playing, not the one playing the solo.
    Good points. I find this happens with much of the footage I see from old BBC clips, including The Old Grey Whistle Test, where one would think the crew knew what they were doing and where the band had already been made to rehearse their stuff for the cameras ahead of a live performance.
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  6. #31
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    Warts and all, this is a fabulous document. And this new edit sounds dang good, too, especially the detail of Phil's kit. Regardless of any one individuals stage presence or lack thereof, this was a band totally committed to their art and just fearlessly going for it. The lack of "photogeneity" and the resulting editing decisions for me are totally unimportant next to the fact that these were real (young!) musicians playing these amazing compositions live in front of an audience who were obviously enraptured. Along with the Shepperton film it's something I love to watch repeatedly and share with others. Since I never saw them live (with or w/o PG) it's the only recourse I have and I'm so grateful that they're available.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    Guide to 1970s Rock Music Camerawork:

    Try to show the lead singer as much as possible even during instrumental sections.
    When the keyboardist is playing, show the drummer.
    When the guitarist is playing, show the keyboardist.
    When the above is not possible, show the guitar player who's strumming.
    You forgot my favorite .. the 45 degree tilt!
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    furthermore he's sitting throughout the whole set
    Except for "The Knife", of course. And until I saw this footage the first time I didn't know that he stood for the last part of "Return of the Giant Hogweed." It was one of their more "metal" moments in the early days and I'm sure it looked silly if he had been just sitting there while the rest of them wailed away.
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  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Munster View Post
    Good points. I find this happens with much of the footage I see from old BBC clips, including The Old Grey Whistle Test, where one would think the crew knew what they were doing and where the band had already been made to rehearse their stuff for the cameras ahead of a live performance.
    Again, it's down to what the director is telling the cameramen to do. Maybe the camera knows the guitarist is standing 10 feet in front of him is playing a solo, but if the director is telling him in his headset, "Zoom in on the drummer" that's what he has to do.

    And it's not just the BBC. It's everywhere. I was watching a video of The Beach Boys on, I think, the Ed Sullivan, and for the entirety of Carl Wilson's guitar solo, they showed Dennis Wilson (apparently, because Dennis was "better looking" than Carl or whatever). Same thing happened on a video I was watching of the Bob Seger System, Seger is playing this bitching guitar solo, but the camera stays on the drummer.

    But you do make a point, they typically do a camera rehearsal, so you'd think the director might use that time to figure out who he's supposed to be focusing on at any given point in the song. But even then, they still can't seem to get it together.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Except for "The Knife", of course. And until I saw this footage the first time I didn't know that he stood for the last part of "Return of the Giant Hogweed." It was one of their more "metal" moments in the early days and I'm sure it looked silly if he had been just sitting there while the rest of them wailed away.
    Yeah, I missed that Hogweed finale.

    It's actually quite funny because the camera is right behind him shooting his back, and the moment he actually lifts his bum off the stool, the camera changes.
    Pity indeed that even when the camera shows his guitar during the lengthy Knife guitar solo, it's not even complete.
    Except for Banks he gets the smallest time image exposure during his solo.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Again, it's down to what the director is telling the cameramen to do. Maybe the camera knows the guitarist is standing 10 feet in front of him is playing a solo, but if the director is telling him in his headset, "Zoom in on the drummer" that's what he has to do.

    But you do make a point, they typically do a camera rehearsal, so you'd think the director might use that time to figure out who he's supposed to be focusing on at any given point in the song. But even then, they still can't seem to get it together.
    Exactly, it's up to the director to say what goes on view.

    And in 90% of the cases, he's not around during the rehearsals.
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  12. #37
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    This really is incredible footage. Thanks for the heads up.

    My daughter (age 15) loved Gabriel's costumes in particular the fox-in-a-dress outfit. She said "that's not cool just because it is silly or funny. I respect what he's doing because it is art..."

  13. #38
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    This really is incredible footage. Thanks for the heads up.
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    I've been on Youtube contantly over the past month - found it on the first day of the video's release.
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  14. #39
    It's so fun to watch a young Phil just casually being an awesome drummer.

  15. #40
    I dind't liked the audio treatment with the type and amount of reverb added and the stupid artificial stereo imagery in extreme wide amplitude with some kind of "slap back delay" effect between channels R and L. There's no focus on it, almost empty center. BTW, interpolate the original 24fps film to 50fps seems more weird to me, definitly not natural. Apart from these points, a very tiring and worthy, spetacular job by the guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Sampaio Barbosa View Post
    I dind't liked the audio treatment with the type and amount of reverb added and the stupid artificial stereo imagery in extreme wide amplitude with some kind of "slap back delay" effect between channels R and L. There's no focus on it, almost empty center. BTW, interpolate the original 24fps film to 50fps seems more weird to me, definitly not natural. Apart from these points, a very tiring and worthy, spetacular job by the guy.
    Sure, but how spectacular exactly, since we don't know what source material he worked from ? This has to have been made with access to the original reels since there is footage that was never broadcast. Does anyone have any information on the genesis (hehe) of this version ?
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  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Sure, but how spectacular exactly, since we don't know what source material he worked from ? This has to have been made with access to the original reels since there is footage that was never broadcast. Does anyone have any information on the genesis (hehe) of this version ?
    Indeed...indeed!!! How is it that after all these years a complete version of TMB surfaces? Granted surely the band didn't perform the song starting 4+ minutes in. It was obviously edited for the TV broadcast back in the day. Also...and here's a "Rael" question (sorry I couldn't resist...LOL), where is the full version of Supper's Ready? Having that would be the real icing on the cake.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by progcd54 View Post
    Indeed...indeed!!! How is it that after all these years a complete version of TMB surfaces? Granted surely the band didn't perform the song starting 4+ minutes in. It was obviously edited for the TV broadcast back in the day. Also...and here's a "Rael" question (sorry I couldn't resist...LOL), where is the full version of Supper's Ready? Having that would be the real icing on the cake.
    I would guess everything that was filmed was used in this new edit. No film crew could conceivably film an entire 20-minute-plus prog epic with so few cameras. Weren't reels no longer than 20 minutes long or something ? Hopefully someone with proper knowledge of such stuff will chime in. Also, as noted in some of the above comments, the crew seemed more interested in the vocal sections (I criticised the lack of Hackett shots but I enjoyed what they did with Banks, lots of shots of his hands on the keyboards).
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbd999 View Post
    It's so fun to watch a young Phil just casually being an awesome drummer.
    Is it just me but with that beard, I can't stop thinking about Curt Cobain

  20. #45
    Well that is a spectacular restoration, it breathes new life into the footage and shows me what I was missing back then. I had just turned 12 when this was filmed and it was still another year until Genesis made their way into my consciousness, when SEBTP finally that opened the door. Of course I've since seen many Musical Box shows, but to see them looking so young and in such detail really adds something.

    Oh to have a full version of Suppers Ready, that would be holy grail time.

    What is with the matching purple velvets jackets in the interview at the end, was this s thing they did back then?

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunlight Caller View Post
    Oh to have a full version of Suppers Ready, that would be holy grail time.
    Genesis French TV 1974 "Melody" has I Know what I Like and Supper's Ready complete.


  22. #47
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    This really is incredible footage. Thanks for the heads up.

    My daughter (age 15) loved Gabriel's costumes in particular the fox-in-a-dress outfit. She said "that's not cool just because it is silly or funny. I respect what he's doing because it is art..."
    Sounds like she'll make an excellent prog fan!

    I like how Gabriel is just suddenly standing there in the Fox head and dress, you don't really get any warning that there's a costume change coming up.

    Also, I didn't know that Tony played 12-string guitar, or any guitar for that matter. I really did a double-take when I noticed that. It may be in the earlier version, but I'd forgotten about that.
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  23. #48
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    Genesis French TV 1974 "Melody" has I Know what I Like and Supper's Ready complete.

    This one, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FBcz3tBH74
    A bit better quality.

  24. #49
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post

    Also, I didn't know that Tony played 12-string guitar, or any guitar for that matter. I really did a double-take when I noticed that. It may be in the earlier version, but I'd forgotten about that.
    IIRC Banks and Rutherford were on 12-string for the beginning of Cinema Show and later on, Ripples.

  25. #50
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Not only did Banks play 12-string guitar on Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, Trick Of The Tail and Duke, he even wrote some of that music on guitar, most notably the opening Lover's Leap section to Supper's Ready. Live gigs in the early days often featured him, Rutherford and Hackett all playing 12-strings on the more gentle acoustic pieces like Happy The Man, Harlequin, Stagnation, etc.
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