Steven Wilson- The Future Bites

[SteveSly]

One man's "roast" is another's "mild critique"....

As I mentioned in a prior post. There are people here who will say things to artists on this forum that they would neve say to the artists face. I think most can take it to an extent, but when it becomes personal or when the artist starts fighting back and it just escalates to the point of getting out of hand. Geoff Downs and Billy Sherwood would be too good examples. They were both active members of this forum at one time, but after people piled abuse after abuse on them, they finally left.

I know a lot of people on this forum in person and some of them would never have guts enough to say in person some of the things they say here.

[JJ88]

I think Wilson posted briefly (and not often) on Prog Archives. I don't remember him ever being on here, although he might have done before I was posting.

Did Downes ever actually post on here? He did on Yesfans. When I think of him and this site I think of that infamous 'Yuppets' blog post, which he later retracted...somewhat...

[Sean]

As I mentioned in a prior post. There are people here who will say things to artists on this forum that they would neve say to the artists face. I think most can take it to an extent, but when it becomes personal or when the artist starts fighting back and it just escalates to the point of getting out of hand. Geoff Downs and Billy Sherwood would be too good examples. They were both active members of this forum at one time, but after people piled abuse after abuse on them, they finally left.

I know a lot of people on this forum in person and some of them would never have guts enough to say in person some of the things they say here.

Steve I think you're letting the time that has passed decorate your memory. Mr. Downes was never run off by anything that was said here that was bad. It was more like people posted honest reviews of the Yes tour that he joined, and it just wasn't very good and even he admitted that later on that he did not practice enough to be totally prepared. Now before that someone pointed him here and he was given a few comments out of context and that's what set him off on his rant on his blog about us. Once I spoke to him though, he took the time to come here and see what it's really about and he actually apologized. After that he did sign up and hang out here a little bit and answered a few questions but never got into it with anyone here. I think you're thinking of him and some other sites maybe even the one for Yes fans. He actually had some good things to say about us once he got here and saw what it was really about and realized it it wasn't what it was when he was fed those comments out of context. That he actually enjoyed reading this place once he took the time to do so. I actually became friends with him over that and we have chatted about it a few times since then. That wouldn't have happened if what you said was true. With Billy it's a similar situation, it was not anything posted here directly about the quality of his music, although plenty has been said about it since then. He got into it with some vendors that did not like him selling that first Circa album exclusively on his site. Neither of these guys are looking back in anger. They are way over it. And after I got to know them some I realized that they actually have pretty thick skins. Billy of course has always been progressive rock's whipping boy for decades now. Mostly thanks to comments on yes specific sites. He takes it in stride though. I doubt I would be as mature if I was in his shoes. I'm not suggesting that nobody here ever says anything they shouldn't, but the examples you gave, there's more to them than you could really know.

[AncientChord]

Hey everyone, I didn't lie. He was here as SWILSON. Doesn't anyone remember? It has been years. I don't remember when he stopped. But I always thought that with his increasing musical and production projects that would certainly limit his free time.

[Poisoned Youth]

Hey everyone, I didn't lie. He was here as SWILSON. Doesn't anyone remember? It has been years. I don't remember when he stopped. But I always thought that with his increasing musical and production projects that would certainly limit his free time.

He was previously here as Omega Monkey as well, who quite cleverly poked fun at his own work.


But seriously, was this before November 2012 (or pre-PE). I can find no record of that user name and there are ones here that have not been active since PEv3 started.

Or was it perhaps at PA, not here?

[Poisoned Youth]

Quite a few artists have been here and been roasted over the coals. They have come and gone unfortunately. People on this forum can sometimes be cruel and say things that they would never say face to face. Roger Waters called it "the bravery of being out of range".

Steve I think you're letting the time that has passed decorate your memory.

Agreed. Yes, we all know about Billy Sherwood, but I can't think of many notable* artists that have come here and been roasted or mocked. I remember even with Martin Orford, several of us tried to "talk him down" as he was comin' in hot.

That all said, I fully agree with Steve that people say things behind the comfort of their keyboard they wouldn't say in person. But at the same time, I think there have been a few artists here who would weigh in with their opinions on a subject but not exactly like the debate and leave.

[SteveSly]

Steve I think you're letting the time that has passed decorate your memory. Mr. Downes was never run off by anything that was said here that was bad. It was more like people posted honest reviews of the Yes tour that he joined, and it just wasn't very good and even he admitted that later on that he did not practice enough to be totally prepared. Now before that someone pointed him here and he was given a few comments out of context and that's what set him off on his rant on his blog about us. Once I spoke to him though, he took the time to come here and see what it's really about and he actually apologized. After that he actually did sign up and hang out here a little bit and answered a few questions but never got into it with anyone here. I think you're thinking of him and some other sites maybe even the one for yes fans. He actually had some good things to say about us once he got here and saw what it was really about and realized it it wasn't what it was when he was fed those comments out of context. That he actually enjoyed reading this place once he took the time to do so. I actually became friends with him over that and we have chatted about it a few times since then. That wouldn't have happened if what you said was true. With Billy it's a similar situation, it was not anything posted here directly about the quality of his music, although plenty has been said about it since then. He got into it with some vendors that did not like him selling that first Circa album exclusively on his site. Neither of these guys are looking back in anger. They are way over it. And after I got to know them some I realized that they actually have pretty thick skins. Billy of course has always been progressive rock's whipping boy for decades now. Mostly thanks to comments on yes specific sites. He takes it in stride though. I doubt I would be as mature if I was in his shoes. I'm not suggesting that nobody here ever says anything they shouldn't, but the examples you gave, there's more to them than you could really know.

Fair enough, and I certainly could be remembering things wrong. I guess my point it, that I know a lot of people on this forum in real life. Some of them will post things that I can't imagine them ever saying in person to someone's face. It is not just here, but on social media in general. I have even been guilty of it myself at times. Anyway.......your recollection is probably correct.

[mozo-pg]

I remember Billy posting in an Open Your Eyes thread. In my opinion, the complete low point of the band, by miles and miles. The album was discussed very diplomatically. I remember some very gentle ribbing that he joined into without any malice.

[3LockBox]

He was previously here as Omega Monkey as well, who quite cleverly poked fun at his own work.


But seriously, was this before November 2012 (or pre-PE). I can find no record of that user name and there are ones here that have not been active since PEv3 started.

Or was it perhaps at PA, not here?

Seriously! Omega Monkey!

[AncientChord]

He was previously here as Omega Monkey as well, who quite cleverly poked fun at his own work.


But seriously, was this before November 2012 (or pre-PE). I can find no record of that user name and there are ones here that have not been active since PEv3 started.

Or was it perhaps at PA, not here?

Well I do know it was years ago, but again when I don't know. And I'm certain it was here at PE, not PA. I don't even remember when I joined PE, but I know it was prior to 2012. I forget many things now but I never forgot that. And he was communicating on the forum with others, so someone like me that's been around PE for a long time should remember, or they're more stoned than me!

[Progatron]

Seriously! Omega Monkey!

Yeah I definitely didn't realize that either. I'm glad I'm not the only one!

Of course, I watched an Opeth gig from the balcony with the entire Porcupine Tree band sitting in the seats directly behind me, and I was oblivious to that as well.

[JJ88]

I remember him being 'swilson' on Prog Archives. This would have been around the time Fear Of A Blank Planet came out.

Omega Monkey, I remember the name but no specific posts.

I remember Billy Sherwood's flounce being talked about but I didn't witness it or even know what it was about. I do remember Geoff Downes taking back what he'd said about this site, to be fair.

Martin Orford often railed about online downloading on the old site. And this was before streaming! What would he be like now (and I'm not unsympathetic)?

I also remember Fripp wasn't keen but not specifics, and I wasn't personally involved.

[Sean]

Fripp had mentioned PE in a few blogs over the years. I think he sort of liked us initially, around The Power To Believe, but one particular post by a devout Belew fan that thought Jakko "sucked" set him off and out went the baby with the bathwater. Not fair, and even Jakko laughed it off, but we made the blog and were referred to as a bunch of 'basement dwellers', basically. It's shit like that that got us what I consider and undeserved bad rep. A perfect example of how less than the 1% can mess things up for everyone else in some people's eyes. Meanwhile the 99% here have focused on the positive and freely admit the music of Crimson and Yes and such made their lives better and still care about that music to this day. This is the dichotomy that bugs me the most about PE's legacy. That said, I don't think cherry picking jabs is any sort of real representation about what this place is really like. Again, it's fixating on an unsurly 1% and ignoring the 99% that had your back all along.

All that said, PE was never created to garner the adoration (or the spite) of the artists we talk about. That was never a motivation, in fact, we really didn't expect any of them to notice we even existed when we got started 20 years ago.

As for Wilson, I don't recall any evidence of him ever posting here, I just heard that he read us back in the day. Who knows? It does not matter anyway.

BTW Basement dwellers don't have the cash to buy those countless boxed sets and 'deluxe editions' that word of mouth here helped move over the years. Just pointing that out....

[JJ88]

I don't have very many of Wilson's remixes (2/3?) but they are very well received by those who buy them. As far as his own work goes, I got off the bus with The Incident, but I was only casually interested anyway. I very briefly met him and he was perfectly pleasant.

I don't go on forums for arguments, so haven't been involved in any of the more infamous set-tos on here, with famous people or otherwise. (The only one I even saw in real time was the Downes one.) There are definitely some people whose repetitive 'schtick' rubs you up the wrong way though. They give the site the reputation it has.

[Sunlight Caller]

That Omega Monkey comment is a joke right? Quite cool and funny if it is true. I've been on PE since the very start, and never do I recall a user SWILSON who purported to be the man himself.

You know if you are in this community long enough you meet your heroes at gigs, signings or just around and about. To a man everyone I have ever spoken to has been approachable, interesting, polite and pleasant. The only person who even bristled was Steve Howe, and that was my fault as I invaded his personal space a little too closely, after he had graciously consented to a photo. I've shared a drink and a chat with Chris Squire, jokes and banter with Rick and Bill, ethereal cosmic vibes with Jon.

Of the modern era I think they all appreciate the support of the small community that gave them a start, and spread the word around the world and I have yet to meet anyone who behaves like a star. I do think many may be wary of PE due to misrepresentation of the past, and I sympathise with Sean that a tiny minority have left this black mark against us.

Mr Orford in my recollection tarred the whole online base withe the same brush, but his beef was not with PE per se, but the whole downloading (stealing) culture, and it has always ben an unwritten rule that we do not support that behaviour. He was not going to be dissuaded by any of us.

[Paulrus]

...it has always been an unwritten rule that we do not support that behaviour.

Ah, but I recall some lengthy arguments here some years ago between one PE member and others where they were defending pirating/unpaid downloading. At least that's how I remember it. I can't remember his moniker...

[Sunlight Caller]

^^ Omega Monkey? ��

I can remember some long discussions too where we tried to educate others, possibly they arose out of the Martin Orford threads? Now that we have streaming it seems piracy is all but dead. Replaced by another slightly lesser evil, so those conversations have vanished.

[boilk]

^^Omega Monkey was EXTREMELY anti all things Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson related. I don't remember all of the rants, of course, but I do specifically remember him boasting one time, that he could write an album of songs as good as Porcupine Tree, in a couple of hours...easily.

neil

[mozo-pg]

^^Omega Monkey was EXTREMELY anti all things Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson related. I don't remember all of the rants, of course, but I do specifically remember him boasting one time, that he could write an album of songs as good as Porcupine Tree, in a couple of hours...easily.

neil

He was actually pretty meak/easy going in person - it was a stage persona as others have already referred to (speaking differently in person versus posting).

[sphinx]

Fripp had mentioned PE in a few blogs over the years. I think he sort of liked us initially, around The Power To Believe, but one particular post by a devout Belew fan that thought Jakko "sucked" set him off and out went the baby with the bathwater. Not fair, and even Jakko laughed it off, but we made the blog and were referred to as a bunch of 'basement dwellers', basically.
[…]
BTW Basement dwellers don't have the cash to buy those countless boxed sets and 'deluxe editions' that word of mouth here helped move over the years. Just pointing that out....

The Basement and its dwellers is a concept or term Fripp has often mentioned in his diary, denoting an ignorant and egotistic behavior or worldview he disapproves of, to simplify things.

In his own words (the context is a guestbook exchange with someone, mr. xxx whose screen name I have retracted, on the perennial topic of concert photography and its disturbing effects on Fripp's performance and wellbeing), and sorry for the verbose quote:

A few words on The Basement…

to adopt the form of the Basement as an exercise in role playing, and to put ourselves in the place of others;
to undermine the hold of the personality on our essential nature through humiliation; that is, through exposure to public ridicule.
This is a very high exercise, not for beginners, and not for many of the experienced either.

So, if Mr. xxx is a Master, my congratulations & thanks to him. His postings are a triumph.
If his letters are simply what they purport to be, an authentic trumpeting from The Basement, let us also be grateful for the insight into how dangerous this place can be.
I’m sure that Mr. xxx is not a bad man, and would not pull the wings off small flying creatures - although he has the right: they go out in public and have wings.

The poster…
assumes he is paying compliments to performers by spoiling their performance, because he would himself like to be complimented in such a way & this would certainly not spoil his performance;
claims obligations of the performer towards himself while undermining the performer in honouring them;
claims “matching” rights on his own behalf without acknowledging obligations.
In the Basement, nothing changes & nothing can change. All is history: re-living the importance of Ride, while failing to engage with the Ride on offer in the moment;
having that historical-moment spoilt by the attention of security staff doing their job of policing someone unmoved by an appeal to abide by house rules.
Mr. xxx spoils a performance while arguing that he has the right to do so, and not only does he have the right, the performer has a corresponding obligation to acknowledge that right, and the spoiling act is actually a compliment to the performer anyway – and the act is spoiling nothing!

An attribute of life in the Basement is that we attribute to others our own motivations & drives.
Why would someone / anyone get on stage, or live a public life, if this were a life-style that didn’t match the performer’s natural inclination & personal bent? Why?
In the Basement, we can only say – because they want to be photographed! Because they want the attention of someone like me – because I want attention from someone like me as well!
Lots of Little Me-s run around The Basement, bumping into each other, demanding attention, going nowhere & making a lot of noise while doing so.
The notion of vocation is a little too quietly-spoken to get a word in.

We are not bad people because we are clueless, but better to know we are clueless; otherwise, we are dangerous.
If we act as-if we have-a-clue, while our heads are placed where sunshine never falls, we bump into other people & accuse them of violating our rights to go wherever we want – because what we do has no effect on anyone else!

In the Basement:

we only see ourselves;
we see the world as an extension of our world;
we see the motivations of others as our own motivations;
the world is like me, only with more of it;
my first instinct is to claim My Rights & it does not occur that prior to having a right, we have an obligation;
my worldview is totally subjective; as such, I am not available to debate, discussion, reasoned argument – because I am unable to put myself in the place of others;
I only see them as aberrant forms of myself when they don’t concur with my own position.

One sure way we recognise the hold of The Basement over us is a sense of entitlement, of having rights.
We are owed something, by the artists & by the performance – the artists are doing what they do because I have given them money!
Their success is because of ME!

Whenever we feel life owes us something, we know immediately: this is The Basement calling.

The attitudes we hold are recognised by others, and this recognition is instinctive to the human animal.
We may not believe this to be so, we may not know this is so, we may not want this to be so; but what we are is sensed by others.
This is part of the natural defense mechanism inbuilt to the human animal, and operative if not overridden by the intellect or feelings.
We put ourselves in front of others, and we are revealed; as also are our attempts at concealment.

[Steve F.]

^^^

>>>> With Billy it's a similar situation, it was not anything posted here directly about the quality of his music, although plenty has been said about it since then. He got into it with some vendors that did not like him selling that first Circa album exclusively on his site. Neither of these guys are looking back in anger. They are way over it.<<><<<

BZZZZT. WRONG!
Billy was very thin-skinned and wanted a hallelujah chorus of fandom. I do not believe that he helped to uplift PE. YMMV.

[battema]

Re: BS...it wasn't about who was/wasn't selling Circa. At least, that wasn't the proverbial straw on that camel's back. It was a post from a vendor questioning why BS was using the main forum as a marketing/promo engine for his work while other bands were posting in the "appropriate" forum and ending up ignored or disregarded. I remember because that same post, if memory serves, referenced my band an a example of one that followed the rules to our disadvantage. At any rate, the response from BS was pretty charged, and thus ended his time on PE.

I remember because up to that point, I was actually kind of a fan. I liked his work, bought Circa from him (both the first and second albums). I enjoyed his posts and thought it was kind of fun that he was here. But that exchange left a very poor taste in my mouth and no, I don't regard him in the same light as before.

IMHO the "celebrity artists" who do best here are the ones who seem to be fans themselves, and are able to not just be here to absorb the criticism/adoration but to actually engage in the community as enthusiasts themselves. Mike Keneally, Dave Kerzner and Kavus Torabi spring to mind.

I can't imagine SW spending much time lurking on PE regarding his new work. I'm sure he's grateful for whatever portion of the prog community follows him into less "Prog" waters, but he's casting a wider net now.

[LASERCD]

Re: BS...it wasn't about who was/wasn't selling Circa. At least, that wasn't the proverbial straw on that camel's back. It was a post from a vendor questioning why BS was using the main forum as a marketing/promo engine for his work while other bands were posting in the "appropriate" forum and ending up ignored or disregarded. I remember because that same post, if memory serves, referenced my band an a example of one that followed the rules to our disadvantage. At any rate, the response from BS was pretty charged, and thus ended his time on PE.

I remember because up to that point, I was actually kind of a fan. I liked his work, bought Circa from him (both the first and second albums). I enjoyed his posts and thought it was kind of fun that he was here. But that exchange left a very poor taste in my mouth and no, I don't regard him in the same light as before.

IMHO the "celebrity artists" who do best here are the ones who seem to be fans themselves, and are able to not just be here to absorb the criticism/adoration but to actually engage in the community as enthusiasts themselves. Mike Keneally, Dave Kerzner and Kavus Torabi spring to mind.

I can't imagine SW spending much time lurking on PE regarding his new work. I'm sure he's grateful for whatever portion of the prog community follows him into less "Prog" waters, but he's casting a wider net now.

If it wasn’t me can I take credit anyway?

[Sean]

Thank you for filling me in. It's been almost 15 years now and I really don't remember all the details I just knew it had something to do with selling the first album and not any bad critique of his work here.

[mozo-pg]

Thank you for filling me in. It's been almost 15 years now and I really don't remember all the details I just knew it had something to do with selling the first album and not any bad critique of his work here.

Sean, I didn't know about these details either. My earlier post was to indicate that feedback from PEers was very diplomatic when discussing Open Your Eyes (despite being the worst album in the history of Yes).