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Thread: Is there any future for CDs?

  1. #151
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Well, that was my point. Big Business. Wait,..American Big Business.
    Cos you think the soviets Chinese did any different during the cold war with their "satellite states", especially the African ones?
    Last edited by Trane; 12-20-2020 at 09:11 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  2. #152
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Cos you think the soviets Chinese did any different during the cold war with their "satellite states", especially the African ones?
    No, because none of those things involve my country.

  3. #153
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I just pre-ordered the new Sonus Umbra CD and got the new Allman Brothers live 2CD. So I guess I do buy CDs.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  4. #154
    I do buy cd's. But I'm not normal. I like prog.

  5. #155
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    It's a big problem. As an independently released artist, I had to constantly invoice myself for these mountains of bad CDs. Naturally, I fell behind in the payments, so then I had to take myself to collections. I wound up in court with myself. It took years to sort it all out, and I'm still dealing with all the bad feelings. The bitter sting of that experience has been ameliorated somewhat by the massive royalties I now get from streaming and selling all those mp3's on Bandcamp. New Mercedes, here I come!

    Funny! I seem to recall having to return my copy of Neal Morse One, because it had a stretch mark on the edge from the plastic injection, making the last track unplayable. And my Sola Scriptura looking like the label had a layer of flat house paint. And disc 1 of my Flower Kings Instant Delivery having an out of sync 5.1 track. Who do you suppose absorbed the costs of all that? Running a smaller operation means less quality control, and more damage control when bad product is shipped to customers.

    BTW: I didn't pick up on the earlier sarcasm in my haste to catch the train late yesterday morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Please stop. You’re gonna make me pee myself.
    When customers started returning vinyl copies of Il tempio delle clessidre s/t with glue all over them, did you have to piss, or were you pissed? I'm sure that didn't hurt your bottom line.
    Last edited by progmatist; 12-17-2020 at 04:28 AM.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  6. #156
    Member LASERCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Funny! I seem to recall having to return my copy of Neal Morse One, because it had a stretch mark on the edge from the plastic injection, making the last track unplayable. And my Sola Scriptura looking like the label had a layer of flat house paint. And disc 1 of my Flower Kings Instant Delivery having an out of sync 5.1 track. Who do you suppose absorbed the costs of all that? Running a smaller operation means less quality control, and more damage control when bad product is shipped to customers.

    BTW: I didn't pick up on the earlier sarcasm in my haste to catch the train late yesterday morning.



    When customers started returning vinyl copies of Il tempio delle clessidre s/t with glue all over them, did you have to piss, or were you pissed? I'm sure that didn't hurt your bottom line.
    Defective goods are returnable to the label or distributor. It is not charged back to the artist, no idea why you think that.

    Black Widow left us with a stash of vinyl and CDs on consignment after the band played Nearfest. Almost all the copies of the album had some strands of glue on the surface that came from the inner sleeve. We cleaned every one and ultimately sold them all. Its possible we got one back as a return but I don’t think so. Once they were cleaned ultrasonically they all played fine. Didn’t cost us anything other than some replacement inner sleeves.

  7. #157
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    It's a big problem. As an independently released artist, I had to constantly invoice myself for these mountains of bad CDs. Naturally, I fell behind in the payments, so then I had to take myself to collections. I wound up in court with myself. It took years to sort it all out, and I'm still dealing with all the bad feelings. The bitter sting of that experience has been ameliorated somewhat by the massive royalties I now get from streaming and selling all those mp3's on Bandcamp. New Mercedes, here I come!


  8. #158
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Defective goods are returnable to the label or distributor. It is not charged back to the artist, no idea why you think that.

    Black Widow left us with a stash of vinyl and CDs on consignment after the band played Nearfest. Almost all the copies of the album had some strands of glue on the surface that came from the inner sleeve. We cleaned every one and ultimately sold them all. Its possible we got one back as a return but I don’t think so. Once they were cleaned ultrasonically they all played fine. Didn’t cost us anything other than some replacement inner sleeves.
    Major labels absolutely, most definitely shift the cost of bad product to the artist(s). But if I self release a CD, I take on that liability voluntarily. I can either visually inspect and test play every unit in the run, or be prepared to refund customers' purchase price and shipping costs. Or send a replacement at my own expense. Then decide if I want to pay return postage, or simply instruct the customers to toss the CDs in the trash.

    If on the other hand I release as download only on BandCamp, at most, a customer might say they don't like my music, and demand a refund. I can tell them, "Sorry! You had to opportunity to listen before you bought." If I decide not to be a dick and give them their refund, I haven't lost anything tangible, like a physical CD.
    Last edited by progmatist; 12-17-2020 at 03:18 PM.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  9. #159
    I have long said, and still believe, that as long as artists are out on the road touring (ok, not this year, but you know), then there is a place for CDs. I honestly do not think many people would be happy going up to a march table, plopping down $10, $15, $20 and getting a card with a download link. I think, for touring musicians, that hard media is essential, whether it's CD, LP or DVD/Blu Ray. I think all have a place.

    Also, as is evidenced by the number of mega box sets released on major labels, they still see a place for CDs in those items, largely, I think, because the majority of buyers are in my age demographic (!). And I do think, at least with the majors, CDs are slowly disappearing as individual items. But when it comes to smaller labels in niche markets, like progressive music, jazz, folk, etc, they are still releasing everything (well, or almost) on CD, and I don't think that will change.
    John Kelman
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  10. #160
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    It’s just mind boggling that CD audio is no longer the gold standard for digital music. It’s due to suffer the fate of the cassette.

  11. #161
    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    I have long said, and still believe, that as long as artists are out on the road touring (ok, not this year, but you know), then there is a place for CDs. I honestly do not think many people would be happy going up to a march table, plopping down $10, $15, $20 and getting a card with a download link. I think, for touring musicians, that hard media is essential, whether it's CD, LP or DVD/Blu Ray. I think all have a place.
    10 years ago I toured with an artist that sold USB sticks (with their logo) containing audio and other content. A bag of 100 fit into my carry on luggage without a problem. They sold for $20 each at the merch booth and were hot items.

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    10 years ago I toured with an artist that sold USB sticks (with their logo) containing audio and other content. A bag of 100 fit into my carry on luggage without a problem. They sold for $20 each at the merch booth and were hot items.
    I think Dutch saxophone-player Hans Dulfer (the father of Candy) did this in 2006.
    https://www.discogs.com/Hans-Dulfer-...elease/1936925

  13. #163
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    I still buy CDs and vinyl but I do enjoy the convenience of digital downloads as well. A few years ago, I started ripping my CDs to hard drives but it's a major PIA. I can see why some just download off Bandcamp or HD tracks or whatever and plug them into a DAP or on the PC. But I imagine the demographics for people still buying CDs favor older people-say over 40 or so. For some of us, physical media won't be going away ever.

  14. #164
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    10 years ago I toured with an artist that sold USB sticks (with their logo) containing audio and other content. A bag of 100 fit into my carry on luggage without a problem. They sold for $20 each at the merch booth and were hot items.
    Last year I had 2 SD cards fail on me inside of two weeks when I went to plug them into my computer at work and there was a spark of static electricity when I made contact with the machine. I imagine that USB sticks might also be prone to such failures, though the only USB stick failure I've ever had was one of those USB Stick/microSD adapter thingies where the plastic part just separated from the metal part after a lot of use. If I ever find myself getting an album on a USB stick, I'm definitely going to be backing the thing up.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Last year I had 2 SD cards fail on me inside of two weeks when I went to plug them into my computer at work and there was a spark of static electricity when I made contact with the machine. I imagine that USB sticks might also be prone to such failures, though the only USB stick failure I've ever had was one of those USB Stick/microSD adapter thingies where the plastic part just separated from the metal part after a lot of use. If I ever find myself getting an album on a USB stick, I'm definitely going to be backing the thing up.
    I've an USB-stick with the samples from the sample-CDs I have for my sampler and it is damaged, but still works.

  16. #166
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    I am not talking about just the fact that files/streaming is more convinient but also the fact that with one simple click you can have on all your devices for example 50 years of ECM records compiled by someone that you might like his taste and you just save a fortune of $$$ and without breaking any low.

    For example: 360 hours of ECM records out of 2K hours compiled carefuly:
    https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7H...ROChntNaxNnwXg

    This is just insane.... you can have everything so handy and availalble that all the "hunt" after rare cd/music is just not there.
    I loved looking for rarities back in the days but today i love it all available for me to just listen and less hunt/buy/wait for parcels etc...

  17. #167
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIO Records View Post
    you can have everything so handy and availalble that all the "hunt" after rare cd/music is just not there.
    I loved looking for rarities back in the days but today i love it all available for me to just listen and less hunt/buy/wait for parcels etc...
    You're correct.

    additionally,
    IMO:
    When more music than anyone can possibly listen to in a lifetime flows out in overwhelming quantities from multiple devices in your household / on your person, the end result is that recorded music loses a great deal of its personal value. It becomes less personally exciting than it used to be.

    This is a personal observation about myself. I would guess that I am not alone in this.

    YMMV.
    Steve F.

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    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

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    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  18. #168
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    ^^^ Absolutely. Being subject to a 360-hour continuous stream of ECM music would be pure torture, even if you got to take breaks!

    Yet take any one of those ECM records/cd's, play it a few times a week while actually *listening* to it, checking out the art on the cover, reading the liners, and repeating that process for a few months. That sometimes results in a joy and contentment that has no substitute, at least in my life.

    Hypothetically of course you could duplicate the record/cd listening experience from Spotify but somehow it never works out that way.

  19. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by MIO Records View Post
    I am not talking about just the fact that files/streaming is more convinient but also the fact that with one simple click you can have on all your devices for example 50 years of ECM records compiled by someone that you might like his taste and you just save a fortune of $$$ and without breaking any low.

    For example: 360 hours of ECM records out of 2K hours compiled carefuly:
    https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7H...ROChntNaxNnwXg

    This is just insane.... you can have everything so handy and availalble that all the "hunt" after rare cd/music is just not there.
    I loved looking for rarities back in the days but today i love it all available for me to just listen and less hunt/buy/wait for parcels etc...
    I really miss the hunt. Going to a recordstore and just looking for instance in a part labeled Kraut, to see if there was something that interested me. Then go to the counter, let them play it for me and buy it. Sometimes I heard something in the store, that catched my attention.
    I still remember a record-store in Amsterdam I used to visit. They sold me a picture-disk of Marillion, because they thought I would like it. A friend of mine told me, he once heard something he wanted to buy and they refused to sell it, because he had bought the album a week earlier.

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    You're correct.

    additionally,
    IMO:
    When more music than anyone can possibly listen to in a lifetime flows out in overwhelming quantities from multiple devices in your household / on your person, the end result is that recorded music loses a great deal of its personal value. It becomes less personally exciting than it used to be.

    This is a personal observation about myself. I would guess that I am not alone in this.

    YMMV.
    You’re not alone. I get drowned in all the music on streaming services. It’s hard to give an album the repeated spins to really dig it. I switch easily to something else if it doesn’t click right away.

  21. #171
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    When more music than anyone can possibly listen to in a lifetime flows out in overwhelming quantities from multiple devices in your household / on your person, the end result is that recorded music loses a great deal of its personal value. It becomes less personally exciting than it used to be.

    This is a personal observation about myself. I would guess that I am not alone in this.

    YMMV.
    That's nearing my case, really. And why I can say that if they (artistes) don't sell CDs, I won't indulge into other formats.
    I mean it's not a question of money (usually not a factor) or even space (well that is an issue), but mainly a question of time.

    Agree that I also need times of silence.

    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    ^^^ Absolutely. Being subject to a 360-hour continuous stream of ECM music would be pure torture, even if you got to take breaks!

    Yet take any one of those ECM records/cd's, play it a few times a week while actually *listening* to it, checking out the art on the cover, reading the liners, and repeating that process for a few months. That sometimes results in a joy and contentment that has no substitute, at least in my life.

    Hypothetically of course you could duplicate the record/cd listening experience from Spotify but somehow it never works out that way.
    Not just about ECM, really. Though I'm a physical product fan, I can't help but wondering if those stupid hipsters buying 7 or 8 vinyls/week will ever spin them at all (except when other hipsters are visiting him). I've seen a couple of cases , where these idiots fill entire walls of their loft, just for decoration and speculation purposes.
    I mean these guys can't possibly have the time to "listen" to all they're buying

    hipipister.png

    You can spot a hipster a mile away, dressed-up like an army uniform


    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    I really miss the hunt. Going to a recordstore and just looking for instance in a part labeled Kraut, to see if there was something that interested me. Then go to the counter, let them play it for me and buy it. Sometimes I heard something in the store, that catched my attention.
    I still get to do this whenever I feel at my two fave B&M stores, Caroline music and Veald & Geeks. But mostly I go looking for stuff that's brand new
    I just don't have the time to flip hundreds of dusty records anymore

    I still remember a record-store in Amsterdam I used to visit. They sold me a picture-disk of Marillion, because they thought I would like it. A friend of mine told me, he once heard something he wanted to buy and they refused to sell it, because he had bought the album a week earlier.
    how so very un-Dutch
    Last edited by Trane; 12-19-2020 at 01:36 PM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  22. #172
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    I've been buying vinyl since I got my new turntable this summer. Bought a few CDs and BC downloads but vinyl is super enjoyable and is like the olde days for me. Even $2 LPs at my local Salvation army is fun when I find rare classical. The choices layed out in front of us as music freaks is beyond crazy, its an amazing time to explore music as a consumer, but maybe not as much as musicians/label owners.

  23. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    IMO:
    When more music than anyone can possibly listen to in a lifetime flows out in overwhelming quantities from multiple devices in your household / on your person, the end result is that recorded music loses a great deal of its personal value. It becomes less personally exciting than it used to be.

    This is a personal observation about myself. I would guess that I am not alone in this.

    YMMV.
    I have the same kind of feeling, so I make sure there's not a constant flow of music into my life. Having quiet moments without music, enjoying the silence, carefully choosing the music I'm going to listen to, are (for me ) aspects of a satisfying experience of music which allows it to keep its personal value. That implies a focus on quality and attention over quantity.
    A physical product helps to support that experience by providing a kind of ritual (looking at the artwork, taking the CD out of its case, etc). Music that just seems to stream "too" easily tends to lose some of its personal value, so when I listen to (legally) downloaded music I need to start with some kind of preparation, even a few seconds of silence and suspense to let the music really enter the room in a dignified way.

  24. #174
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    My issue with streaming is that unless you are a subscriber to a hi-res service like Tidal or Qobuz you are getting less than CD quality. That might be fine for coming from an Echo or Google single speaker device or laptop speakers, but coming out of a full stereo rig it sounds like ASS.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  25. #175
    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Not just about ECM, really. Though I'm a physical product fan, I can't help but wondering if those stupid hipsters buying 7 or 8 vinyls/week will ever spin them at all (except when other hipsters are visiting him). I've seen a couple of cases , where these idiots fill entire walls of their loft, just for decoration and speculation purposes.
    I mean these guys can't possibly have the time to "listen" to all they're buying

    hipipister.png

    You can spot a hipster a mile away, dressed-up like an army uniform
    This is part of the problem.

    Not the hipsters...

    YOU

    You seem to have a problem (or irritation) with certain types of people purchasing music to do with what they please. They're actually buying vinyl (music), but you want to knock them down a peg or two. Why? Does it get you all giggly, excited, and superior?

    You have zero clue as to what they do with their vinyl. You have no indication as to how much time per day/week/month/year they turn their listening attention to music. You do not know if they sit and dissect each vinyl to the Nth degree or if they rub it in crap. YOU DON'T KNOW what many others do with their music but you act like you do know.

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