ELP Works Vol. 2

[dgtlman]

This was the album that, essentially, got me off the ELP train. Then when Love Beach came out the cover pic sealed the deal.

[SunRunner2]

I think ELP lost the plot after Brain Salad Surgery.

Concur with this sentiment.

I have read interviews with Pete Sinfield relative to his experience with ELP when writing the Love Beach lyrics and he pretty much summed it up as to their state of mind and attitude toward each other at that point. I can't recall where I saw the article, perhaps on Sinfield's website.

[JJ88]

The repeated refrain - that now it's all about the music - is particularly striking, given that, in effect, they had no more new music.

It's interesting, they had recorded a lot of solo tracks with other musicians in that period. But ELP as a group, barely enough for an album's worth. Works Volume 2 has a few 1973 tracks, obviously. I think there probably was an element of 'burn out' after Brain Salad Surgery.

FWIW I like most of ELPowell. Lake still sounds strong on it, unlike the two 90s fully-fledged ELP reunion albums. The production hasn't aged especially gracefully, though.

[GuitarGeek]

It's been said that it would have worked better financially had ELP just used orchestras from the area they were playing in, rather than touring with the same one.

That's actually how that type of thing is usually done. Like when someone like Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley or more recently, the likes of Yes or The Moody Blues, did the big orchestra thing, they'd actually use local musicians. Sometimes this produces mixed results, because you don't always get the same quality musicians every night. I remember hearing from people who saw multiple shows on the Yessymphonic tour back in 2001 that was apparently the case, some nights the orchestras would be a bit so-so. I'm not exactly sure where the musicians were coming from, but I gather it wasn't, let's say, from the Cleveland Orchestra or Chicago Symphony Orchestra (to name two of the more highly rated orchestras in the world). It was more like the equivalent of AAA or AA baseball, rather than the Major Leagues.

Anyway, my understanding of how it works is that a coordinator sets up which groups of musicians are going to be performing in each city or area. So the charts are sent out ahead of time, and the orchestra rehearses the music. Then just before the shows are to occur, the conductor goes out, and runs through music with the orchestra to make sure everything is as it needs to be.

The thing that frelled ELP up was, due to union rules, they could only do three concerts a week, but they were paying the per diem for the orchestra members (and, I believe all the ancillary staff that the musician union rules again require) for seven days a week for the entire duration of the tour. So that's kinda of what shot them in the foot on that front. If they had used a different orchestra in each city, or each area, they could have done more shows and probably made more money.

[GuitarGeek]

Musically speaking, the piano concerto alone was more demanding technically than anything on the Moodys' set list, and relying on pick-up groups to do the material justice on a single rehearsal would have been dicey. I can totally see why they made the decision to travel with an orchestra from that standpoint.

So how is it usually with a normal orchestra performance? I imagine there's some things that any given orchestra in the world could play in their sleep (e.g. the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies and concerti), and there's probably things they can play with just a little sight reading and a couple run throughs before hand. But what about contemporary music. Like something like a Ligeti or Lutoslawski piece, how much rehearsal is put in before hand? And when there's going to be a "famous" soloist, like say if Itzhak Perlman or Yo-Yo Ma or Pierre-Laurent Aimard, surely the soloist isn't there for the entire rehearsal process, so how is that dealt with?

[proggy_jazzer]

So how is it usually with a normal orchestra performance? I imagine there's some things that any given orchestra in the world could play in their sleep (e.g. the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies and concerti), and there's probably things they can play with just a little sight reading and a couple run throughs before hand. But what about contemporary music. Like something like a Ligeti or Lutoslawski piece, how much rehearsal is put in before hand? And when there's going to be a "famous" soloist, like say if Itzhak Perlman or Yo-Yo Ma or Pierre-Laurent Aimard, surely the soloist isn't there for the entire rehearsal process, so how is that dealt with?

Professional orchestras work under contract for a "season" of performances which can consist of as many as 40-50 concerts per season. The top-tier orchestras in major cities are comprised of the highest-caliber (mostly unionized) musicians in the area who are paid a salary, benefits, and often a taste of the royalties from any recordings the orchestra makes while they're a member. These gigs are, understandably, ultra-competitive, and the assumption of those who win the positions by audition is that they are able to execute their part of any material programmed at the highest level and on a minimum of rehearsal. These players can indeed play most traditional material "in their sleep", and are also usually outstanding sight-readers; a necessity since the rehearsal period for each concert may only be a few days. Much of the music is "under the fingers" already, and the less well-known or more difficult pieces are (sometimes but not always) distributed in advance. Works with soloists are rehearsed briefly with the orchestra alone, and then usually once with the soloist in order to sort out any tricky ensemble issues and give the conductor the opportunity to experience any idiosyncrasies or eccentricities the performer has. With these groups, the bar is set very high, and sub-par performances are very much the exception, regardless of the difficulty level of the material.

Second- and third-tier orchestras are often a combination of salaried (principals/first chair) and per-service contracted musicians. The seasons are more limited, usually somewhere around 6-8 ranging up to 20-30 performances. The level of musicianship, while still high in the top players, can fall off (sometimes dramatically) below the first desk, especially in the strings. There being fewer concerts, the rehearsal periods are often longer, allowing for more practice time as a group. These orchestras are usually a combination of professionals, teachers, and more advanced students from local/regional music schools, with commensurately less experience and skill, and the literature chosen reflects this. The finished product can range from excellent to quite mediocre, depending on the efficacy of the programming and the skill of the conductor in bringing out the best in the players.

To bring this back around to Works V2 the material on that album that uses orchestra is actually quite good, with interesting and challenging parts. Its a shame that none of that material made it to the stage.

[Rarebird]

In the beginning Barclay James Harvest toured with some kind of orchestra, I think.

[gearHed289]

I have read interviews with Pete Sinfield relative to his experience with ELP when writing the Love Beach lyrics...

Is he responsible for Taste of My Love? I thought that was a collaboration with Gene Simmons.

[Mister Triscuits]

Is he responsible for Taste of My Love? I thought that was a collaboration with Gene Simmons.

Even Gene Simmons has some standards.

[GuitarGeek]

Even Gene Simmons has some standards.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I know Paul Stanley doesn't (hence, Let's Put The X In Sex, to name just one egregious violation).

I'd have to listen to Works II again, but I recall most of it's relatively good. I always liked Watching Over You, and I know there's a couple other tunes here and there. Tiger In A Spotlight I liked, until I heard this:



Turns out dead Soviet Bloc composers weren't the only people Keith and Greg ripped off.

[Dave (in MA)]

Turns out dead Soviet Bloc composers weren't the only people Keith and Greg ripped off.

There are tons of songs with that same pattern.
Can I Get A Witness, The Boy From New York City, Groove A Little

[GuitarGeek]

There are tons of songs with that same pattern.
Can I Get A Witness, The Boy From New York City, Groove A Little

Well, you're no fun.

[Dave (in MA)]

Well, you're no fun.

Yeah, I get that a lot.

[Mister Triscuits]

There are tons of songs with that same pattern.
Can I Get A Witness, The Boy From New York City, Groove A Little

And "Shame Shame Shame" (the Jimmy Reed song, not the Shirley & Co. one). Bryan Ferry's cover ends up with the backing singers doing "Can I Get a Witness" simultaneously.

[JJ88]

^See also The Rolling Stones' 'Little By Little' ('Shame Shame Shame' was probably the model for that, although 'Can I Get A Witness' and something called 'Now I've Got A Witness' are on the same album!). It's fairly standard. Indeed ELP were jamming on that same riff in their early concerts, you can hear it in that Brussels film for instance.

[vmartell]

Going back not only to Works Vol. 2 but to that whole ELP era...

1) Is amazing that the silent period lasted 3 years - some bands put out 5 albums in that period!

2) Works Vol 1 - it was the wrong comeback album - a single traditional ELP album of stellar quality would have been the right move. The Emerson concerto is not, well, good enough to appeal to a classical audience, obviously a hard sell for a rock audience... The Lake songs.. well, only a couple of those truly register... and Palmer's side... well while you can argue is the most successful side of the solo sides, it is strange to hear in an ELP context - probably better for a true solo album... Pirates and Fanfare... well they work! - a great side 2 to a hypothetical, single album of traditional ELP.


3) The tour.. it has been hailed as an artistic triumph and people bemoan that the orchestra had to be dropped... I was too young (barely! ) to attend but from the recordings that I have heard, specially the extended Works In Concert that was added to the 2016 Remaster of Works Vol 2 - I am not convinced it was the artistic triumph that everyone says it is... The orchestra was essentially supplanting Emerson instead of integrating with the band... Not sure if it was the arrangements or the recordings, but the only thing I can hear from the orchestra is brass... barely remember hearing strings, except for C'est la vie... and on top, when Keith was featured, that damned thin sounding Yamaha monster...did Keith even used a Hammond on that tour? Was it the Yamaha too? Only Pirates works and that is probably because it was already worked out and successful on record.. IMHO, of course

3) Works Vol 2 - Vol 1 might have been at least moderately successful for them to reuse the title and have continuity... because, well at least Vol 1 has a concept... but Vol 2... is Coda without great songs... well.. except for the Xmas one... I think I appreciated and like "Love Beach" better... but even above that one the greatest hits album they put out in after Love Beach... to put it in modern terms, a great ELP "playlist" !

4) But all of the above is just an indicator that ELP was done after the BSS Ladder Tour... They completely lost the plot.. If anyone calls the "Welcome Back My Friends..." live album posthumous, I would not disagree - NOW that is a live album AND an artistic triumph...


v

[pbs1902]

3) The tour.. when Keith was featured, that damned thin sounding Yamaha monster...

LOL. All I ever think about was the god-forsaken 'plink, plink plink' of Greg's 8 string Alembic bass. YUK!

The first time I saw ELP was with the orchestra and and it was great, for this ELP newbie. I saw them again when they can back in 78, as a trio, and they were on fire! I can understand the consternation of the then newer synth sounds, but they really put on a show that cold January night in Chicago!

[JJ88]

I don't love it, but at least Emerson got something out of that Yamaha behemoth. John Paul Jones and Stevie Wonder, less so, in my view. I'm glad Emerson stayed away from that 'strings' sound on it.

Mind you there's some pretty ropey sounds on that arrangement of 'Pictures...' they were doing then.

[per anporth]

Going back not only to Works Vol. 2 but to that whole ELP era...

1) Is amazing that the silent period lasted 3 years - some bands put out 5 albums in that period!

2) Works Vol 1 - it was the wrong comeback album - a single traditional ELP album of stellar quality would have been the right move. The Emerson concerto is not, well, good enough to appeal to a classical audience, obviously a hard sell for a rock audience... The Lake songs.. well, only a couple of those truly register... and Palmer's side... well while you can argue is the most successful side of the solo sides, it is strange to hear in an ELP context - probably better for a true solo album... Pirates and Fanfare... well they work! - a great side 2 to a hypothetical, single album of traditional ELP.


3) The tour.. it has been hailed as an artistic triumph and people bemoan that the orchestra had to be dropped... I was too young (barely! ) to attend but from the recordings that I have heard, specially the extended Works In Concert that was added to the 2016 Remaster of Works Vol 2 - I am not convinced it was the artistic triumph that everyone says it is... The orchestra was essentially supplanting Emerson instead of integrating with the band... Not sure if it was the arrangements or the recordings, but the only thing I can hear from the orchestra is brass... barely remember hearing strings, except for C'est la vie... and on top, when Keith was featured, that damned thin sounding Yamaha monster...did Keith even used a Hammond on that tour? Was it the Yamaha too? Only Pirates works and that is probably because it was already worked out and successful on record.. IMHO, of course

3) Works Vol 2 - Vol 1 might have been at least moderately successful for them to reuse the title and have continuity... because, well at least Vol 1 has a concept... but Vol 2... is Coda without great songs... well.. except for the Xmas one... I think I appreciated and like "Love Beach" better... but even above that one the greatest hits album they put out in after Love Beach... to put it in modern terms, a great ELP "playlist" !

4) But all of the above is just an indicator that ELP was done after the BSS Ladder Tour... They completely lost the plot.. If anyone calls the "Welcome Back My Friends..." live album posthumous, I would not disagree - NOW that is a live album AND an artistic triumph...


v

It's worth tracking down a/the boot of the MSG concert with the orchestra - it's a very different experience from the poor recordings used for the Works Live release(s).

[Gizmotron]

Going back not only to Works Vol. 2 but to that whole ELP era...

1) Is amazing that the silent period lasted 3 years - some bands put out 5 albums in that period!

2) Works Vol 1 - it was the wrong comeback album - a single traditional ELP album of stellar quality would have been the right move. The Emerson concerto is not, well, good enough to appeal to a classical audience, obviously a hard sell for a rock audience... The Lake songs.. well, only a couple of those truly register... and Palmer's side... well while you can argue is the most successful side of the solo sides, it is strange to hear in an ELP context - probably better for a true solo album... Pirates and Fanfare... well they work! - a great side 2 to a hypothetical, single album of traditional ELP.


3) The tour.. it has been hailed as an artistic triumph and people bemoan that the orchestra had to be dropped... I was too young (barely! ) to attend but from the recordings that I have heard, specially the extended Works In Concert that was added to the 2016 Remaster of Works Vol 2 - I am not convinced it was the artistic triumph that everyone says it is... The orchestra was essentially supplanting Emerson instead of integrating with the band... Not sure if it was the arrangements or the recordings, but the only thing I can hear from the orchestra is brass... barely remember hearing strings, except for C'est la vie... and on top, when Keith was featured, that damned thin sounding Yamaha monster...did Keith even used a Hammond on that tour? Was it the Yamaha too? Only Pirates works and that is probably because it was already worked out and successful on record.. IMHO, of course

3) Works Vol 2 - Vol 1 might have been at least moderately successful for them to reuse the title and have continuity... because, well at least Vol 1 has a concept... but Vol 2... is Coda without great songs... well.. except for the Xmas one... I think I appreciated and like "Love Beach" better... but even above that one the greatest hits album they put out in after Love Beach... to put it in modern terms, a great ELP "playlist" !

4) But all of the above is just an indicator that ELP was done after the BSS Ladder Tour... They completely lost the plot.. If anyone calls the "Welcome Back My Friends..." live album posthumous, I would not disagree - NOW that is a live album AND an artistic triumph...


v

As someone who both saw the Orchestral tour (Madison Square Garden) and has seen several hundred orchestral concerts, I can assure that the ELP show was stellar.

And yes, their dedicated orchestra was far better rehearsed and of better quality than the shows I have seen with Yes, the Moody Blues, etc.

As well, the way the mic’d the musicians was state of the art at the time. Despite the bad acoustics of MSG, I have never heard better sound at a concert—any concert—than ELP at MSG with the orchestra. As far as the equipment, the musicians, ad the presentation, they were on another level. I never had any problem believing that it nearly bankrupt them.

As far as the topic, I very much enjoy Works II. But I approach recorded music differently; I never take anything for granted and so it is easy to find something enjoyable and worthwhile in everything I listen to.

[JJ88]

Yes I agree, the MSG show is probably the best representation of that tour. It's an audience recording but everything is reasonably clear. I think it's a better performance than the Montreal one, which was (at least partially) videotaped as well as recorded.

The Montreal parts of Works Live are a sonic disaster for something that was professionally recorded, and it's horribly sequenced. And no 'Pirates', WTF??

Lake's bass sound is unfortunate in this era, sounds like a rattlesnake.

[Gizmotron]

Yes I agree, the MSG show is probably the best representation of that tour. It's an audience recording but everything is reasonably clear. I think it's a better performance than the Montreal one, which was (at least partially) videotaped as well as recorded.

The Montreal parts of Works Live are a sonic disaster for something that was professionally recorded, and it's horribly sequenced. And no 'Pirates', WTF??

Lake's bass sound is unfortunate in this era, sounds like a rattlesnake.

In my opinion, Lake had the best sound of the show. His bass sound was stunning. His voice? Off the chart good. I was gobsmacked at how good it sounded (amplification-wise). At the time I wondered if there was some sort of previously-unused technology behind it.

I saw the band in Phoenix later on the stripped down tour and his voice was almost as well represented.

[Paulrus]

It's fairly standard. Indeed ELP were jamming on that same riff in their early concerts, you can hear it in that Brussels film for instance.

All three of them probably woodshedded to that kind of thing when they were starting out in the 1960s. I'm sure Keith played a ton of it in bands like Gary Farr and the T-Bones.

[Jaco]

LOL. All I ever think about was the god-forsaken 'plink, plink plink' of Greg's 8 string Alembic bass. YUK!

The first time I saw ELP was with the orchestra and and it was great, for this ELP newbie. I saw them again when they can back in 78, as a trio, and they were on fire! I can understand the consternation of the then newer synth sounds, but they really put on a show that cold January night in Chicago!

I was listening to the Nassau Coliseum release last night and that Toppy Jangle bass is so odd, almost no bottom end comes through and in fact when you mix it in with some of the hi toms from Carl Palmer and the Hammond key click , it's quite bizarre if interesting , all sorts of clicky sounds meshed together. Yet on some other recordings there is much more middle and lo end.

[JJ88]

In my opinion, Lake had the best sound of the show. His bass sound was stunning. His voice? Off the chart good. I was gobsmacked at how good it sounded (amplification-wise). At the time I wondered if there was some sort of previously-unused technology behind it.

I saw the band in Phoenix later on the stripped down tour and his voice was almost as well represented.

I'm listening to the MSG recording again now and the bass doesn't come through that well other than when he uses that scratchy sound. It must be a recording thing- as I remember, the same is true of the audience recording of Yes there from 1974 (the TFTO tour). When Lake plays guitar it's clear as what Emerson and Palmer are playing. And Lake's vocals are clear.

I forget if Montreal got a greatly shortened set, or if not all of it was videotaped/recorded. It really suffers by comparison. In the MSG set, you get (sans orchestra) 'Hoedown' and much of 'Tarkus'. And then with the orchestra Emerson does the first movement of his Piano Concerto as well as the third.

Another oddity. 'Still...You Turn Me On' is played (not on Montreal, again) and Emerson introduces it as being from Trilogy!