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Thread: Artists You Have To Like (Or Else)

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Not everyone wants to do the same thing all the time forever.

    Also, what's wrong with those songs?

    I know it may bring down the wrath of the Prog Gods to say this here, but I think "In Too Deep" is a seriously beautiful song. If I'd ever written anything half as good as that song, I'd be pretty dang proud.


    And what's wrong with Hootie and the Blowfish? Darius Rucker has a great voice; I'd take that band over Kiss any day of the week, man...

    As to Phil's solo career, I concur with your thoughts relative to "In Too Deep" (actually a Genesis song) and it applies to some other songs that he wrote or performed, either with Genesis or on his own. I thought "Dance Into The Light" was an a well written and enjoyable Pop Rock song and better than a lot of the Pop hits of the day. I think he really nailed it on "Against All Odds (Take a Look at Me Now)" and I think that the critic on All Music got it right when she described it as "remains not only one of Collins' definitive singles, but one of the 1980s' best love songs, a perfect mix of over-the-top drama and genuine emotion that has aged better than anyone might have expected in 1984". Whenever he would conjure up his forceful and dynamic song writing self and punctuate it with hard hitting drums, that's where he really shined, such as "In The Air Tonight", "Do You Know, Do You Care" and "Take Me Home". But when he indulged himself in the cheesy schmaltz of tunes such as "Separate Lives" and "Two Hearts" or his completely redundant and unnecessary cover tunes like "You Can't Hurry Love", "True Colors" and "A Groovy Kind Of Love", he diminished his solo career standing in my eyes. Still, overall, a pretty amazing run of a solo career and a lot of creative songwriting.

    Regarding Hootie and the Blowfish I never cared for their middle of the road Pop Rock sound and it isn't too much of a come down at all when you think of later Uriah Heep ("Sweet Freedom) and just about all of Kiss' output; to migrate to Hootie & The Fish from there is a small step sideways. Peter Frampton, well, he was alright for the late 70's Rock fare.

  2. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    It's extraordinary when you think about it. A drummer who (reluctantly!) became lead singer of a progressive rock band, and then became one of the biggest pop stars in the world in the 80s. I like a lot of his hits however much some on here rant and rave about them. Same with the 80s Genesis albums.

    FWIW I think Collins' solo career declined artistically as well as commercially in the 90s/00s, but his 80s songs have lasted the distance.
    It is a pretty extraordinary (and unlikely) trajectory, especially when looking back on his career as a whole.

    I agree with you about his solo career. All of his 80s songs still hold up, IMO.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunRunner2 View Post
    But when he indulged himself in the cheesy schmaltz of tunes such as "Separate Lives" and "Two Hearts" or his completely redundant and unnecessary cover tunes like "You Can't Hurry Love", "True Colors" and "A Groovy Kind Of Love", he diminished his solo career standing in my eyes. Still, overall, a pretty amazing run of a solo career and a lot of creative songwriting.
    I really like every one of these except 'True Colors'. Not a song I care much for in anyone's version, but I also don't like any records which sound like Collins' version of that. That bland 90s Adult Contemporary sound.

  4. #229
    ^ I agree with you.

    Actually, "Two Hearts" is one of my favorite songs.

  5. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Not everyone wants to do the same thing all the time forever.
    Nothing wrong with not wanting to do the same thing forever. Hell, I don't even think I'd want an endless string of mid 70's style Genesis recordings.

    But when they do decide to do something different, if that 'different' is: less complex, short form, verse-bridge- chorus structure, etc, that's when they lose me. I am fans of great musicians, like Collins, when they play music I am interested in, I am not a fan simply because they are a musician who once played in a band I like, if they are producing music I don't care about.

    When Deus Ex Machina violinist, Alessandro Bonetti, decides to do something different (or maybe Deus ex Machina is his chance to do something different), and plays Ligeti with his string quartet, I remain interested.
    When Bruford decided to do something different and formed post bop jazz group, Earthworks, I remain interested.
    When Morris Pert played with Brand X, Oldfield, Kate Bush, Anthony Phillips, Peter Hammill, or he composed contemporary classical music, I remain interested.

    If any of the above musicians play on anything approaching mundane (to me) pop, like pretty much anything Collins did post Genesis and Brand X, I stop listening.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  6. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Nothing wrong with not wanting to do the same thing forever. Hell, I don't even think I'd want an endless string of mid 70's style Genesis recordings.
    Me neither.


    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I am fans of great musicians, like Collins, when they play music I am interested in, I am not a fan simply because they are a musician who once played in a band I like, if they are producing music I don't care about.
    Neither am I.

    Phil's music outside of Genesis is near and dear to my heart on its own merits, having nothing to do with his having once played in Genesis. I came to know songs like "In the Air Tonight" and "Sussudio" years before I ever heard any of the progressive rock he had made with Genesis in the 70s. I don't listen to music I don't like just because the artist/band made music in the past that I enjoy. If I don't like something, I don't listen to it. Simple as that.

    I have no problem with simpler, shorter songs if they're good songs. Like most things in art, "good" is often subjective. But to my ears, Phil made a lot of good music in the 80s.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post

    Phil's music outside of Genesis is near and dear to my heart on its own merits, having nothing to do with his having once played in Genesis. I came to know songs like "In the Air Tonight" and "Sussudio" years before I ever heard any of the progressive rock he had made with Genesis in the 70s. I don't listen to music I don't like just because the artist/band made music in the past that I enjoy. If I don't like something, I don't listen to it. Simple as that.
    I mostly agree with what you said here, however, since you heard his solo stuff first that is a different matter altogether. Of course you won't stop following his output since you were initially engaged with it. Simon Moon is looking at it in reverse, as I was in my post above.

    Simon Moon, I think you stated your case well, above, however I have one follow up question that kind of relates to what aith01 is saying. If you hear a song years after the artist fell out of favor for your tastes and you actually find that you like that song somewhat (or a lot), would you at the least admit it to yourself and make a quasi-exception to your overall rule concerning when artists go toward more commercial, less complex works? Or, do you block it out completely and consider their work dead to your way of listening to music?

  8. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by SunRunner2 View Post
    I mostly agree with what you said here, however, since you heard his solo stuff first that is a different matter altogether. Of course you won't stop following his output since you were initially engaged with it. Simon Moon is looking at it in reverse, as I was in my post above.
    I don't believe that's an important distinction. And you're making an assumption about me that's untrue. I never followed Phil's output, because by the time I started actually paying attention to music and collecting it, he was already out of the spotlight (and out of favor with the public). I don't particularly care for his music from the 90s and 00s except for a few tracks here and there. There's also plenty of music I liked when I was younger that I can't even stand listening to now.

    There was also a time when I disliked Phil's 80s music because I had discovered 70s Genesis and the progressive rock genre and I thought Phil's solo music was boring and that he "sold out". I used to feel the same way about Genesis in the 80s. When I got older, I began to reevaluate his music and realized that it was a lot more sophisticated and emotional than I had realized. Was he writing complex multi-part symphonic epics? No. But he made songs that spoke to me when I was feeling down (musically and lyrically), and I realized that was just as important to me.

    YMMV. But I love Phil and always will.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    .
    But he made songs that spoke to me when I was feeling down (musically and lyrically), and I realized that was just as important to me.

    YMMV. But I love Phil and always will.
    I comprehend your points and feelings expressed above. I am sort of in the middle of this "Phil Sells Out" phenomenon as I was an ardent fan of his Genesis work even including some of the 80's output and I liked much of his solo work thereafter. However, I understand why PE members and others think he left most of his substantive, creative self behind when he became more and more commercial Pop Rock oriented and went for the Top 40 hits.

    And whether I like Phil, of course I do! After all, my two favorite Rock concerts of all time were fronted by him: 1976's Trick Of The Tail Tour and 1980's Duke Tour. Stellar performances that will stay with me all my life.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    There was also a time when I disliked Phil's 80s music because I had discovered 70s Genesis and the progressive rock genre and I thought Phil's solo music was boring and that he "sold out". I used to feel the same way about Genesis in the 80s.
    There was militancy on the other side as well. I was, in 2006/7, on the official forum and used to get flayed alive by the 80s/90s fans for saying I wasn't especially keen on the syn-drums on Invisible Touch. (Something Hugh Padgham agrees with!) I also remember loony fanboy comments along the lines of 'you're not a true fan unless you love every single song they've recorded'- for goodness' sake, get a grip!

    I actually hadn't played the post-Duke albums for years until the reunion in 2007 and found that I enjoyed them all. But not every single song!

    Back on topic, another sacred cow I never got at all were The Arctic Monkeys. (Were they that big a thing in the US?? Not sure.) I think it may have been law in the mid-late 2000s that every UK music critic had to gush about them. I found them terribly ordinary compared with just about any of the big British rock acts of earlier decades, and still do. Sorry!

  11. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by SunRunner2 View Post
    I mostly agree with what you said here, however, since you heard his solo stuff first that is a different matter altogether. Of course you won't stop following his output since you were initially engaged with it. Simon Moon is looking at it in reverse, as I was in my post above.

    Simon Moon, I think you stated your case well, above, however I have one follow up question that kind of relates to what aith01 is saying. If you hear a song years after the artist fell out of favor for your tastes and you actually find that you like that song somewhat (or a lot), would you at the least admit it to yourself and make a quasi-exception to your overall rule concerning when artists go toward more commercial, less complex works? Or, do you block it out completely and consider their work dead to your way of listening to music?
    Here's the thing. I believe I have the ability to recognize a 'good' (as in: well crafted, catchy hook, with some level of sophistication) pop or mainstream rock song, without actually liking it. And some of Phil's songs fit that description. So, at some level, I can appreciate it. But actually liking it and listening to it, no.

    I posted a thread a few months back, about how music holds almost no nostalgic feelings for me. Before I discovered prog (and later jazz, fusion, and contemporary classical), I was listening to: Black Sabbath, Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, etc, etc, during some of the best times of my life. When I hear a song by one of those bands now, I have no emotional connection to the time of my life in which I listened to them, and most of them do nothing for me now.

    And on the other side, I was listening a lot to Banco, "Canto Di Primavera" during a horrible breakup. I can listen to that album today, without having any negative emotions connected to it.

    Listening to: artists, lyrics or songs "that helped me through hard times", (or similar non-music related reasons), has no meaning for me. Music does not serve any purpose for me, besides the the active listening experience I get from the music on its own merits (see below).

    So, for me, listening to music for almost any reasons besides: the broad range of emotions the music itself conveys, high level of musicianship, complexity, the feelings of being transported to another (internal) world by the music alone, the feelings of emotional catharsis (again, by the music alone, not emotional connections from past experiences), are among the reasons I listen to music.

    So far, prog (most of its sub-genres), classical (20th century, modern, avant-garde and contemporary), and jazz (its more progressive sub-genres) are the only musical forms that hold any interest for me. They all, to some extent or another "push the buttons" I mentioned above.

    I am hearing a bit of contemporary "progressive bluegrass" that I might explore a bit more.
    Last edited by simon moon; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:13 PM.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  12. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    [...] Listening to: artists, lyrics or songs "that helped me through hard times", (or similar non-music related reasons), has no meaning for me. Music does not serve any purpose for me, besides the the active listening experience I get from the music on its own merits [...]
    I understand what you mean, and this helps me to understand how our perspectives differ. For me, there is no differentiation like what you described above. Those are just facets that are inseparable from the music-listening experience, and they are all music-related reasons, for me. I can only speak for myself here.

    Music can mean different things to different people, and they can get different things out of it. This is what makes it such a beautiful thing.

  13. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    There was militancy on the other side as well. I was, in 2006/7, on the official forum and used to get flayed alive by the 80s/90s fans for saying I wasn't especially keen on the syn-drums on Invisible Touch. (Something Hugh Padgham agrees with!) I also remember loony fanboy comments along the lines of 'you're not a true fan unless you love every single song they've recorded'- for goodness' sake, get a grip!

    I actually hadn't played the post-Duke albums for years until the reunion in 2007 and found that I enjoyed them all. But not every single song!

    Back on topic, another sacred cow I never got at all were The Arctic Monkeys. (Were they that big a thing in the US?? Not sure.) I think it may have been law in the mid-late 2000s that every UK music critic had to gush about them. I found them terribly ordinary compared with just about any of the big British rock acts of earlier decades, and still do. Sorry!
    I remember those days... I used to be on the official forum too, for about 2004-2010 probably. What was your username on there? (Mine was "Carpet Crawler") There were a few highly contentious folks on there, it's true. And a few of them perpetuated the idea of "factions" depending on which member you liked -- Gabrielite, Hacketeer, Philistine, Banksian... Good times.

    Personally, I like every Genesis album (even FGTR) but I would never say you're not a "true fan" if you don't love everything they've ever done. That's just unreasonable. There are some Genesis songs I still can't stand. Only a few though... They are my favorite band after all.

    Never did get into the Arctic Monkeys myself. Recall hearing/reading a lot of buzz around their first album, but I don't think they ever quite caught on over here in the US like they did elsewhere (maybe?). What little I heard sounded decent I guess, but not really what I was looking for so I never explored further.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post

    Listening to: artists, lyrics or songs "that helped me through hard times", (or similar non-music related reasons), has no meaning for me. Music does not serve any purpose for me, besides the the active listening experience I get from the music on its own merits (see below).

    So, for me, listening to music for almost any reasons besides: the broad range of emotions the music itself conveys, high level of musicianship, complexity, the feelings of being transported to another (internal) world by the music alone, the feelings of emotional catharsis (again, by the music alone, not emotional connections from past experiences), are among the reasons I listen to music.
    That is a very interesting perspective on your appreciation and enjoyment of music. The detailed description in your post reminded me of the philosophical expression from Bil Keane that goes something like this: "Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present".

    Listen onward and enjoy.

  15. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Listening to: artists, lyrics or songs "that helped me through hard times", (or similar non-music related reasons), has no meaning for me. Music does not serve any purpose for me, besides the the active listening experience I get from the music on its own merits (see below).

    So, for me, listening to music for almost any reasons besides: the broad range of emotions the music itself conveys, high level of musicianship, complexity, the feelings of being transported to another (internal) world by the music alone, the feelings of emotional catharsis (again, by the music alone, not emotional connections from past experiences), are among the reasons I listen to music.
    Let me make a slight modification to the part in bold above.

    My current emotional state (anger, frustration, happiness, etc), may actually effect what I choose to listen to at that time, while I am experiencing said emotions.

    But certainly not my emotional state in some past time, that certain music will remind me of.

    But I am much more likely to listen to something dark and dissonant, if I am in a negative mood, than uplifting music. At times like those, uplifting music tends to sound trite and obvious to me, where dark and dissonant tends to help me work through my current mental state, as I previously mentioned as "catharsis".
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  16. #241
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    I have listened to some Zappa, Tangerine Dream, Mike Oldfield and Gong over the last few weeks. By and large, other than some Genesis-related stuff, I haven't listened to much prog-related at all over this dreadful period. 50s/early 60s rock is my 'happy place' escapism, I find.

    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    I remember those days... I used to be on the official forum too, for about 2004-2010 probably. What was your username on there?
    I don't remember, a la Gabriel. I wasn't there very long, a matter of months, probably! Late 2006, very early 2007. (They paywalled the forum before the reunion tour, as I remember) Some nice enough people on there (including a moderator who sent me a supportive message) but on the whole it wasn't a good experience.

  17. #242
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ Did you meet a charming chap called the Luminous Leper, or something like that?

  18. #243
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    ^Not that I can remember.

    It was the 80s/90s-only fans I found the worst, by far.

  19. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I don't remember, a la Gabriel. I wasn't there very long, a matter of months, probably! Late 2006, very early 2007. (They paywalled the forum before the reunion tour, as I remember) Some nice enough people on there (including a moderator who sent me a supportive message) but on the whole it wasn't a good experience.
    That's a shame -- I'm sorry that you didn't have a good experience there. On the whole, I have a lot of good memories of my time on that forum. But it was a different time period, and things did change after the reunion was announced and the forum went under new management (although the old forum members got grandfathered in when the paywall went up, which was nice).

    One guy there, Nov (who also used to hang around on PE), was who turned me onto The Flower Kings in 2006. Wish he would come back; I miss his enthusiasm.

    One of the most obnoxious posters there was named Celtic (or maybe Keltic), I think. He was a self-described "Gabrielite", and eventually got banned after some stuff went down between him and another member. I wasn't surprised, based on how he treated other people there. I don't recall the Luminous Leper though.

    A really nice thing though was seeing a few new, young folks who discovered Genesis, became fans and joined the forum to talk about them. Warmed my heart a bit.

  20. #245
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Luminous Leper claimed to be a member of Britain's Upper Class, and was insufferably obnoxious. You guys didn't miss a thing.

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