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Thread: Featured album : Sloche - Stadacone

  1. #26
    Kind of a "symphonic fusion" thing like many of the bands you listed, also Kenso and Finch.
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  2. #27
    ^ Oh, most definitely. The main difference being that the mentioned musicians primarily stemmed from a decidedly "rock" background - as did Yes on Relayer, P-F-M- on Jet Lag and so on. But there was prominent -jazz- in progressive rock from the very beginning, so I can't see where an eventual "sub genre" comes into play.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  3. #28
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    From Prog Archives (Your Ultimate Prog Rock Source):

    PROG SUB-GENRES: Canterbury Scene Crossover Prog Eclectic Prog Experimental/Post Metal Heavy Prog Indo-Prog/Raga Rock Jazz Rock/Fusion Krautrock Neo-Prog Post Rock/Math Rock Prog Folk Progressive Electronic Progressive Metal Psychedelic/Space Rock RIO/Avant-Prog Rock Progressivo Italiano Symphonic Prog Tech/Extreme Prog Metal Zeuhl Various Genres/Artists Prog Related Proto-Prog

    JAZZ ROCK/FUSION
    A Progressive Rock Sub-genre
    From Progarchives.com, the ultimate progressive rock music website
    Jazz Rock/Fusion definition

    Jazz Fusion is jazz that is strongly influenced by other styles of music. Jazz fusion is an ambiguous term that provides the first level sub-set down from Jazz. Jazz rock is a sub-sub set from jazz via jazz fusion. The ambiguity comes from an American tendency through the 90's and until now, to freely interchange jazz rock and jazz fusion, when in fact the latter term covers most hybrids of jazz fused with other forms of music. The roots of jazz rock can be traced back to RnB influenced soul-jazz artists such as Les McCann, Grant Green and Jimmy Smith, and young British jazzers such as Graham Bond, Ginger Baker, John McLaughlin, Jack Bruce, Georgie Fame, who were forced to use electronic instruments because the local club's acoustic instruments were reserved for the older established jazz musicians. Probably the first jazz artists that released recordings that mixed modern rock (circa 60s) with jazz were Larry Coryell, Jeremy Steig, Charles Lloyd, The Soft Machine, and The (Jazz) Crusaders. Meanwhile rock artists such as Cream, Grateful Dead and The Jimi Hendrix Experience were getting a lot of publicity and fame with their lengthy improvisations based on blues, rock, psychedelia and some jazz. These rock artists had an impact on Miles Davis who generated a lot of media attention to this new jazz-rock genre with his Bitches Brew album. From there the genre grew and exploded into numerous different directions. One of these directions was brass rock as exemplified by bands like Dreams, Chicago, BS&T and If. These bands combined elements of jazz, rock and classical music with arrangements for brass and woodwinds.
    continued

    -------------

    The list of artists that follows this lengthy definition of Jazz Rock/Fusion includes Sloche and Kenso.

  4. #29
    ^ Yeah. Unfortunately, PA doesn't quite present an "authoritative" taxonomy on terms of genre. It's not usually referred to in teachings at music academies across the globe, for instance. Rather it's a set of convenient applications and adjustment of someone's subjective understanding of Things on the internet. On the other hand, there are plenty of written anthologies and encyclopaedias on jazz and its abbreviations - including fusion, jazz-rock, nú-jazz and the lot - and stuff like Camel and Happy the Man or for that matter Sloche are never featured. That's because they aren't considered as belonging to a "jazz-rock sub genre", any more than Gnosis is "devoid of modern prog" - the latter since progressive rock of today by definition is something altogether quite different from what it was, say, 47 years back.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  5. #30
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    Having resolved that matter, does anyone here have any thoughts on what happened to stop this fine band in its tracks after these two excellent releases? My thinking is that the core of the band was still loosely together in 1977, when the three members (Berard, Murray & Hebert) played together on the Yves Alberts album and some combo of the members played on other albums, sometimes uncredited. Then as late as 1983 Réjean Yacola, the keyboard player, arranged and played keys (along with guitarist Caroll Bérard) on an album by Hélène Matteau. I believe that due to the low volume of record sales for their two albums and probably having problems getting any label to support another recording, they became session players on other French Canadian artists releases. When you think of how dynamic their song writing and playing was on Stadacone, it is hard to conceive of them not having any more creative ideas for a third album. The creative spark shouldn't have died that quickly.

    Unless someone has additional information on the bands direction and fate post- Stadacone, I imagine it will never be known. But then again, that happens all too frequently in Prog circles. As PY stated in the Nearfest related thread, a lack of interest and overall apathy by the music buying public may have taken another one down.

  6. #31
    ^ The matter wasn't resolved, seeing as things aren't resolved by posting extracts from casual internet websites that we personally feel fit to agree with. And there are numerous modern progressie rock artists featured at the very top of Gnosis although they somehow tend to not sound anything like music made between 1969-73, as they often advanced beyond that through the course of many decades.

    I believe the fate of Sloche is meticulously outlined in the expansive booklets of those two marvellously excellent reissues which were given us by ProgQuébec.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  7. #32
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Love the two Sloche albums. A friend sent me those on a cassette many years ago and so began my explorations of the delightful world of musique du Québec, limited at that point in my young life to Harmonium.

    Love Maneige as well! I just wish Montréal, 6 AM would see a CD release.
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    ^ The matter wasn't resolved,
    I mean if the ultimate prog rock source has weighed in, there is nothing left for little people like us to do but read and learn.
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  9. #34
    Member Mythos's Avatar
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    I also bought J'un Oeil (LP) back in the 70's. It was ok, I think I sold or traded it to Greg @ Synphonic 10/15 years ago.. There's just so much music out there, it's easy to give up something like this and move on, which I did...

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by smcfee View Post
    I mean if the ultimate prog rock source has weighed in, there is nothing left for little people like us to do but read and learn.
    Hey, I'm all for jazz-rock sub genre and reissue labels of that ilk, I only fell for the temptation to "not get it".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythos View Post
    I also bought J'un Oeil (LP) back in the 70's. It was ok, I think I sold or traded it to Greg @ Synphonic 10/15 years ago.. There's just so much music out there, it's easy to give up something like this
    While I agree with you on principle, I don't on case matter; Sloche were exceptionally great at what they were into.

    Stylistically and on the surface they may have appeared to be semi-second-tier, but once you get those references in order and truly listen to those two splendid records then it clears off how intensely good they were. Tunes, arrangements and playing, even the scarce vocals, are wielded to detailed perfection but still there's heart, mind and that incredible joy of tone. Granted there were countless "prog/symph fusion" bands around, but I can hardly remember a single "obscurity" other than Sloche who were actually better at it than their most obvious peers and influences.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  11. #36
    I would never introduce Sloche to an outsider as a jazz/rock combo. I would call them plain "prog" with a fusion leaning. The term "symphonic fusion" could also be of some use here. As Richard explained, the term jazz/rock is more suitable for artists coming from a jazz background and trying their hand in rock music (like McLaughlin, Di Meola etc). I don't know if the trend has changed, or the term is used differently in the narrow prog community. In the same context all Canterbury or Zeuhl could be deemed Jazz/Rock - but that would be innacurate...

    ...or even dangerous. In fact Prog haters are all too eager to deem bands like Soft Machine or Gong as Jazz/Rock, just to eradicate any suspicion of a relation to a wider Prog milieu (of which these bands were very much aware and a part). So they can have the gods they worship like Robert Wyatt or Frank Zappa or David Allen without the slightest notion of a relation to a progressive rock aesthetics.

  12. #37
    ^ Well, luckily today there's even such a thing as sympozia and seminars on various rock genres in academic institutions, conservatories etc. The element of an artist/musician's outset is usually crucial in determining a taxonomy on outcome. A seminar I attended many years back here in Oslo used Norwegian band Ruphus as a prime example, as they went from heavy rock through Yes-like symphonic rock and onto "fusion" - yet they were decidedly referred to as a rock group trying their hand at allsorts. Which I suppose was what the "progressive" essence was all about in the first place.

    Soft Machine are tricky, because in their case you'll likely find them on both sides of the fence. Their origins were absolutely rock/pop, but they were augmented by bonafide jazz-musicians along the way and consequently became "acceptable" to parts of the congregation. But Gong? Or Colosseum? About as far-fetched from "true jazz" as Henry Cow would be from "true contemporary composition". They were all wild (progressive) rock equilibrists, driving their stakes through the hearts of continuity.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  13. #38
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunRunner2 View Post

    This puzzle prompted me to search around by individual member to see what they may have performed by themselves or in concert with other artists. I discovered a few later albums by other French Canadian artists for which individual members contributed but they weren't actually credited in the liner notes. But, alas, I located an album in which three of the members played on and were credited for it: Caroll Berard (guitar), Martin Murray (keyboards & saxophone) and Pierre Hebert (drums) all played on Yves Alberts self titled World, Folk, Country album from 1977. (Also, I found a reference to Hebert playing drums for the above mentioned group Octobre, but not sure if it's the same person??).

    https://www.discogs.com/Yves-Albert-...elease/4194297


    pretty good folk rock record, but two bloody atrocious country rocker (sung in anglais).
    You can tell the back-up musicians were very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    I don't think I ever came across any hardcore fusion fans who'd consider Sloche part of a "jazz/rock sub genre". Not any more than Camel or Happy the Man or Arti e Mestieri or Schicke-Führs-Fröhling were part of it.
    Indeed, but JR/F sounds one of the better tag for Sloche along with "strongly influenced by Gentle Giant", just like I would of RTF's Romantic Warrior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I would never introduce Sloche to an outsider as a jazz/rock combo. I would call them plain "prog" with a fusion leaning. The term "symphonic fusion" could also be of some use here. As Richard explained, the term jazz/rock is more suitable for artists coming from a jazz background and trying their hand in rock music (like McLaughlin, Di Meola etc). I don't know if the trend has changed, or the term is used differently in the narrow prog community. In the same context all Canterbury or Zeuhl could be deemed Jazz/Rock - but that would be innacurate...
    Let's not split hairs in ten, especially lengthwise, please

    BTW: I definitely class my Zeuhl and Canterbury close to my JR/F albums.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  14. #39
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    BTW: I definitely class my Zeuhl and Canterbury close to my JR/F albums.
    Zeuhl & Canterbury are 'like' JRF but better
    Ian

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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post


    pretty good folk rock record, but two bloody atrocious country rocker (sung in anglais).
    You can tell the back-up musicians were very good.
    Interesting that the former members played on a record which was good folk rock, but your takeaway included the very good playing of the back-up musicians. Whatever they tackled they did it with gusto, I imagine. Thanks for your follow-up take on this 1977 recording including the 3 Sloche members.
    I'm listening to the album now, man, that's a different sound!

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post

    While I agree with you on principle, I don't on case matter; Sloche were exceptionally great at what they were into.

    Stylistically and on the surface they may have appeared to be semi-second-tier, but once you get those references in order and truly listen to those two splendid records then it clears off how intensely good they were. Tunes, arrangements and playing, even the scarce vocals, are wielded to detailed perfection but still there's heart, mind and that incredible joy of tone. Granted there were countless "prog/symph fusion" bands around, but I can hardly remember a single "obscurity" other than Sloche who were actually better at it than their most obvious peers and influences.

    Agreed 100%
    Other comparisons: Happy the Man (USA), Etna (italy) & Artii & Mestieri (Italy),
    Last edited by nosebone; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:30 PM.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by SunRunner2 View Post
    Interesting that the former members played on a record which was good folk rock
    Yes, extremely interesting how they also dwelled into another apparent sub genre about which they at all times certainly were highly aware was a different sub genre from the one sub genre which they explored in Sloche, which was yet another sub genre from that meta genre which apparently isn't adequately represented in Gnosis ratings. All of these sub- and meta genres come out of the true prog ultra-genre.

    Genre rules them all.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  18. #43
    Most likely explanation is that they were hired guns, of course. Lots of studio musician work for prog artists in the 70s that explain the sometimes odd fits.
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  19. #44
    ^ If only more Nina Hagen fans would embrace her once backing band, Stern Combo Meissen - then the world would surely be a way better place. Or not.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by smcfee View Post
    Most likely explanation is that they were hired guns, of course. Lots of studio musician work for prog artists in the 70s that explain the sometimes odd fits.
    You are too lenient. They betrayed prog and they deserve to die.
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  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    You are too lenient. They betrayed prog and they deserve to die.
    Statute of limitations :-D.

    I remember doing vinyl hunting in Paris and picking up a few trojan horses based on trusting the names on the back and/or track lengths, and ending up with some chanson bullshit. I would imagine many of us have similar stories.
    Infinite Ceiling on www.ckcufm.com every Thursday night at 8:30 with me or Mark Keill, archived shows: https://cod.ckcufm.com/programs/112/...tml?filter=all
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  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by smcfee View Post
    chanson bullshit.
    Now -there's- a prog sub genre I really despise!
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  23. #48
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    I bought both Sloche cd's in a large HMV during a visit to Montreal about a decade ago. They were in the "Musique Quebecois" section, which was pretty large. An entire room. About $25 each but how could you not support a mainstream retailer who was still stocking a lot of prog circa 2010? They had the Harmoniums as well and the other usual suspects.

    Great records. BTW I was just listening to a Crusaders concert before the Sloche and there is definitely an influence.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    I bought both Sloche cd's in a large HMV during a visit to Montreal about a decade ago. They were in the "Musique Quebecois" section, which was pretty large. An entire room. About $25 each but how could you not support a mainstream retailer who was still stocking a lot of prog circa 2010? They had the Harmoniums as well and the other usual suspects.
    HMV and Archambault were good about carrying the releases, at least for a few years. One of my happiest label memories is seeing a physical display dedicated to Quebec prog with several of our releases (I think it was HMV, ran it in a bunch of their stores, so I went to the Gatineau one to check it out).
    Infinite Ceiling on www.ckcufm.com every Thursday night at 8:30 with me or Mark Keill, archived shows: https://cod.ckcufm.com/programs/112/...tml?filter=all
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  25. #50
    It’s hard to decide which Sloche album to go for. I sure wouldn’t want to be without either. Both albums end on a fantastic note—these guys knew to save the best for last! Their mix of jazz fusion with “proggy prog” complex musical structures reminds me of National Health more than anything, but I guess more “symphonic” due to the heavy use of synths and the way they arrange the pieces.

    Obviously as I hinted at “Isacaaron” is the high point for me. It’s pieces like that which hit all the notes that prog is supposed to for me. Good prog, anyway. I never get sick of it. Though I think my favorite moment comes in the title track, where the monks’ choir comes in singing in Latin, followed by that crescendoing vocal glissando leading into the next section. There was always something “quirky” about Sloche (from their name on down), and that one little bit sort of illustrates what they’re all about better than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    ^ If only more Nina Hagen fans would embrace her once backing band, Stern Combo Meissen - then the world would surely be a way better place. Or not.
    Automobil was Nina Hagen’s band (which featured Michael Heubach of Lift, Christiane Ufholz’s band). Are you sure you’re not thinking of Veronika Fischer (who was only in S-CM for a short moment before joining Panta Rhei, who later metamorphosed into Karat)?
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