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[GuitarGeek]

The “Genesis Live” recordings were made just a month later (24/25 Feb’73) and two changes have been introduced: (1) The (unreleased) version of SR now has it’s familiar fade at the end and (2) the lower key has been introduced for the song’s conclusion (as mentioned above).
I can’t help but wonder if the catalyst for these changes had some relation to the pending live recording by the KBFH which eventually led to the live album.

Well, what actually led to Genesis Live was that the band needed more time to work on what would become Selling England By The Pound. Actually, that's one of the main reasons most live albums are done: to give the band a little bit of breather so they don't have to have the next studio album out "right now", while at the same time maintaining their visibility in the record shops.

Those earliest performances (about 40 or so at the most) are the only ones where Genesis played SR in the “Foxtrot keys” throughout. It would appear that every performance since (about 140 with PG, another 150 with SH (1976/77) and finally 45 with the 3-man line–up (1982)) has seen the “lower key” ending adopted as standard. Before you ask – no I haven’t checked!

Songs get transposed down, usually to accommodate the singer. A lot of times, a song gets recorded in a given key just because that's what it sounds best in. Or maybe it's because that was the key it was written in, and it's decided that it "doesn't sound right" in a lower key. So you record in the higher key, and the singer does his best to struggle singing in that key. You might even slow the tape down ever so slightly to help him/her "hit the high notes" (David Gilmour said Pink Floyd did that on Welcome To The Machine, there was one passage where he couldn't hit the required the notes, so they slowed the tape down, and he sang it a tone lower).

Maybe Peter felt after awhile that it was too much of a strain to sing As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs in the higher key, so he suggested dropping the key down a tone. And they just kept that way after Peter left.

I remember there was a point in the 80's, where I was reading about guitarists tuning down a half step because "it sounds better", but the reason the whole idea of tuning the guitar down was for two reasons:

1. To accommodate the vocalist

and

2. To accommodate playing with woodwind instruments (which, typically are pitched, typically, in either Bb or Eb)

In the case of Tony Iommi, I've often times heard it said he tuned down to accommodate his disability (which some say helped "create the sound of heavy metal").

And yeah, it does sound different, and I imagine some people did prefer the tone they got with the guitar pitched in Eb or D. But it started out for other reasons.

SH appears to have stuck to the “lower key” ending for the GR album and shows but again I haven’t checked for any further deviations

Maybe Steve forgot that As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs was played in a lower key for a long time. Or maybe Nad said "Look, I'd like to give it a go at singing in the original key, I think I can manage it".

[WytchCrypt]

In the case of Tony Iommi, I've often times heard it said he tuned down to accommodate his disability (which some say helped "create the sound of heavy metal").

True. As a lifelong Sabbath fan and player of an Epiphone Tony Iommi Ltd Ed SG I can add some details.

For the 1st 2 Sabbath albums Tony played in standard E tuning, but with incredibly light strings so he could bend using his prosthetic fingertips without pain (to this day he still uses a very light string set: 9-9-12-22-28-38 or 8-8-11-18-24-32 depending on the situation). It was on the 3rd album, Masters of Reality that he began dropping his tuning 3 half steps to C# while still using light string gauges. Geezer Butler also downtuned his bass to match and doom metal was born! He stayed with C# through Vol 4 & Sabbath Bloody Sabbath before returning to E standard on the next album, Sabotage. You can really hear the difference as Ozzy seems to be really straining to hit the high notes that were more comfortably in his range on the C# downtuned albums. Once Ozzy left and Dio came in, Tony stayed in standard E but soon began dropping his tuning a half step to Eb and as far as I can tell, without a few exceptions, that's where he's remained to this day.

[happytheman]

I listened to SR from The Roxy this morning (pulled it off Big O years ago).. the version on Seconds Out still gets my vote..
http://bigozine2.com/roio/?p=3097

[GuitarGeek]

True. As a lifelong Sabbath fan and player of an Epiphone Tony Iommi Ltd Ed SG I can add some details.

For the 1st 2 Sabbath albums Tony played in standard E tuning, but with incredibly light strings so he could bend using his prosthetic fingertips without pain (to this day he still uses a very light string set: 9-9-12-22-28-38 or 8-8-11-18-24-32 depending on the situation). It was on the 3rd album, Masters of Reality that he began dropping his tuning 3 half steps to C# while still using light string gauges. Geezer Butler also downtuned his bass to match and doom metal was born! He stayed with C# through Vol 4 & Sabbath Bloody Sabbath before returning to E standard on the next album, Sabotage. You can really hear the difference as Ozzy seems to be really straining to hit the high notes that were more comfortably in his range on the C# downtuned albums. Once Ozzy left and Dio came in, Tony stayed in standard E but soon began dropping his tuning a half step to Eb and as far as I can tell, without a few exceptions, that's where he's remained to this day.

Thank you. I wasn't certain of the details, but I find it interesting to hear about the changes. I wonder what precipitated the return to tuning to concert pitch circa Sabotage.

[r2daft2]

My interpretation of events is that the "Genesis Live" recordings were not made specifically for release as an album (although that may have been considered to be an option) but rather to promote the first tour that Genesis had organised in the US and Canada (they had only played two shows in the US prior to this tour). The Leicester and Manchester shows were recorded specifically for the KBFH just a week or so before this tour started but the KBFH didn't broadcast any of the recordings. By the time the decision had been made to compile a live album from the recordings, the promotional opportunity had been missed.

The live album was released (on 20 July 1973) as a stop-gap before SEBTP was ready - but it was not available in the US until much later (early 1974) - after SEBTP had been released (13 October 1973) and after a 2nd US tour (Nov/Dec 1973) which had featured the classic SEBTP setlist.

Steve Hackett has adopted the "lower key" ending for SR (not the original Foxtrot key).
Maybe this isn't a surprise considering that he'd played the song this way live maybe 300 times (cf the maximum of 40 times for the original).
A good question here for Steve methinks if any potential interviewer's are reading.

What's ironic here is that I've lost count of the number of times members of this forum have criticised our elder performers for dropping keys to suit their deteriorating vocal range to the alleged detriment of the song and yet here's a case of a key change being introduced (mid-tour) only months after the original version had been released. What's more... many posters prefer the later recorded live versions!

[WytchCrypt]

Thank you. I wasn't certain of the details, but I find it interesting to hear about the changes. I wonder what precipitated the return to tuning to concert pitch circa Sabotage.

That's a really good question and I don't have an answer. I know it's not because of a change in guitar...Sabotage was the final album Tony used what's known as "The Monkey" (his red Gibson SG with dot neck inlays and monkey decal). That same year ('75) a luthier named John Birch began building Tony a custom designed SG with hand wound high output pickups, 24 frets and the now familiar cross inlays on the neck. He retired The Monkey and began using this on the next album, "Technical Ecstasy" and up until about 1982. At that point, it was replaced with what's known as, "The Old Boy" built by a luthier who worked for John Birch named John Diggins - who set up his own workshop designing guitars under the brand name, JayDee. JayDee Custom Guitars is still in business (https://www.jaydeecustomguitars.co.u..._standard.html) and sells variations of his Iommi designs. They're not cheap, but still much cheaper than the early 2000's Gibson Iommi signature which was around $5,000, or the newly released Gibson Monkey limited edition run hand signed by Tony (50 lefties & 50 righties) that actually goes for $20,000

[GuitarGeek]

That same year ('75) a luthier named John Birch began building Tony a custom designed SG with hand wound high output pickups, 24 frets and the now familiar cross inlays on the neck. He retired The Monkey and began using this on the next album, "Technical Ecstasy" and up until about 1982. At that point, it was replaced with what's known as, "The Old Boy" built by a luthier who worked for John Birch named John Diggins - who set up his own workshop designing guitars under the brand name, JayDee. JayDee Custom Guitars is still in business

John Birch also built the first copy of Brian May's Red Special. It's the natural finished guitar you can see in the We Will Rock You and Spread Your Wings videos. He said it never quite "felt right" and he eventually ended up getting mad one night and throwing it off the stage during a show on the Hot Space tour (it had to be Hot Space, because you can see him using it on a couple songs on the Milton Keynes video that came out on DVD about 12 years ago). He said he then sent it to Fender, because they were going to make another copy from it, but it got stolen from the Fender facility. He said "It was broken, it couldn't be played, but...".

Birch also built the matching Rickenbacker style doublenecks used by Nektar's Roye Albrighton and Mo Moore in the mid 70's. Mo's 4 string/8 string bass doubleneck made a reappearance on their recent tour.

I remember I used to have a brochure from JayDee Guitars. Apparently, they also built an SG copy with lightning bolt inlays for Angus Young (I gather you can see it in some of AC/DC's mid 80's era video) and also made basses for Mark King of Level 42.

My interpretation of events is that the "Genesis Live" recordings were not made specifically for release as an album

No they were not. They were recorded for the King Biscuit Flower Hour radio show. When it became apparent they were gonna need some extra time to finish Selling England By The Pound, Charisma put out the live album, either as a contractual thing (i.e. "We owe them an album by a certain deadline, and we're not gonna be finished with the new studio album before then, so...") or simply to keep the band's profile up in the record bins.

What's ironic here is that I've lost count of the number of times members of this forum have criticised our elder performers for dropping keys to suit their deteriorating vocal range to the alleged detriment of the song and yet here's a case of a key change being introduced (mid-tour) only months after the original version had been released.

It's actually pretty common, even with new material. I remember Tony Banks being asked in Keyboard magazine about the "percolating" sound during the middle 8 of Invisible Touch itself. He said it was something he did with the sequencer on his Emulator II, but when they decided to lower the key of the song for the live show, he had to redo the sequence, and he felt that it didn't sound as good in the lower key.

I also remember Pete Townshend saying in the early 70's that The Who played My Generation in a different key onstage than they had on the record, though I think his explanation was "It just sounds better onstage in D" (or whichever key it was).

[JJ88]

The original Genesis Live record was a budget-priced release. This wasn't uncommon with live albums at the time; on Charisma, Lindisfarne also had a budget live album out, and on Island there were Pictures At An Exhbition and Earthbound.

It worked for Genesis as I think it was their biggest-selling album up to that point in the UK. I think it's a well recorded document of a band on the cusp of bigger things.

I do wonder what the Rainbow show later that same year was recorded for, though. I sometimes think this show was intended for the King Biscuit Flower Hour, because it was broadcast on the radio. The Leicester/Manchester shows were early for KBFH recordings.

http://radioguide.genesis-movement.o...html#x-20oct73

[WytchCrypt]

John Birch also built the first copy of Brian May's Red Special. It's the natural finished guitar you can see in the We Will Rock You and Spread Your Wings videos. He said it never quite "felt right" and he eventually ended up getting mad one night and throwing it off the stage during a show on the Hot Space tour (it had to be Hot Space, because you can see him using it on a couple songs on the Milton Keynes video that came out on DVD about 12 years ago). He said he then sent it to Fender, because they were going to make another copy from it, but it got stolen from the Fender facility. He said "It was broken, it couldn't be played, but...".

This is a very interesting story about John Birch and makes me wonder. In addition to your story about Brian May, I've read that Tony Iommi was never completely happy with Birch's take on his original Gibson Monkey. He obviously loved the high output pickups as he still uses a variation of those today 'backward engineered' by Gibson to create their signature Iommi pickup (the same PU's as my Epiphone Iommi SG). But when he wanted a replacement SG, he didn't return to Birch but to 'JayDee'. Here we have a couple examples in both Iommi and May (who I believe are very good friends) both with John Birch customs they seem to have been less than pleased with.

[r2daft2]

Its been suggested that PG wasn't happy with Genesis Live being released at all (he was critical of the performances and/or recording quality) and the budget price and limited availability (UK, not US, don't know about elsewhere!) seemed a compromise that Charisma pushed for.
The Rainbow recording (20 Oct 73) would appear to be an attempt to get a live album that PG would support a worldwide release of.
The Shepperton video shoot (just 10 days later) could provide a source for more audio particularly considering that The Musical Box had been omitted from the recordings made at the Rainbow (is it missing because it was botched? - there are no audience recordings to prove it had been omitted from the set! Why would it have been?).
In the event, the band weren't happy with the outcome of either of these projects and they were both shelved. Only then was the Genesis Live album made available in the US despite PG's protests that it highlighted material that had been dropped from the SEBTP tour set.
As far as I'm aware only the Shepperton video of IKWIL was to appear in the UK at the time - it was shown on the Old Grey Whistle Test to support the single when released in Feb 1974. I remember it well - it was my first exposure to Genesis.
When the Rainbow show finally had an official release on the box sets, PG had rerecorded his vocals (there are pre-dubbed boots out there for comparison).
It doesn't really surprise me that there's not a lot of love emerging for that particular version of SR.

[JJ88]

^'The Musical Box' from the Rainbow and I think 'Watcher...' (though that track was on the bootleg anyway) was very briefly made available as a download via their official site. Those were the two tracks which were left off the CD in the Live 1973-07 box. I don't have it as I left the site a few years before that. Someone here probably does.

The Rainbow concert should be released in its correct sequence on a 2cd IMHO. I don't think they did that much with it compared with the Shrine concert. The first few minutes of 'Supper's Ready' were certainly re-done by Gabriel, and Hackett/Banks re-did a couple of solos, but other than that, I'm not sure.

You are right about Shepperton, not sure if anything from that was ever actually broadcast anywhere beyond one track.

[r2daft2]

Your right...TMB and WotS from the Rainbow both appear in the Live Box - but only on the DVD and in 5.1 surround sound!
I guess they might have been missed off the single CD in that box because they are the two songs that had appeared on Genesis Live.

I don't have the Live Box and I can see that, as a consequence, I actually missed two other versions of SR from my original post - these being the 5.1 mixes of both the SO and Rainbow versions of SR. Sorry about that.

The Live Box didn't appeal to me at the time and maybe I'm going to regret the decision not to pick it up. I'd be interested in a 2CD of the Rainbow show too.

It's also struck me how PG in particular resisted live releases in the day - especially when you consider that there wasn't another release of him singing live until PG Plays Live in 1983 - 10 years after Genesis Live came out! ….and then another 11 years until the next (Secret World Live in 1994).

[JJ88]

I don't have the live box either. How bizarre to include unrelated songs from the Shrine concert as extra tracks on Live, instead of the Leicester 'Supper's Ready' which was intended for that album! I believe the tapes with that track exist; they had to have all the original multi-tracks to remix the original album, after all.

Gabriel did release a live video in between those two live albums- PoV or whatever it was called. ISTR it was very heavily post-produced in the visual department. The Blu-ray of Live In Athens is far better as it's just the concert.

[GuitarGeek]

This is a very interesting story about John Birch and makes me wonder. In addition to your story about Brian May, I've read that Tony Iommi was never completely happy with Birch's take on his original Gibson Monkey. He obviously loved the high output pickups as he still uses a variation of those today 'backward engineered' by Gibson to create their signature Iommi pickup (the same PU's as my Epiphone Iommi SG). But when he wanted a replacement SG, he didn't return to Birch but to 'JayDee'. Here we have a couple examples in both Iommi and May (who I believe are very good friends) both with John Birch customs they seem to have been less than pleased with.

Yeah, I believe Brian actually guested on one of the 90's era Sabbath albums, if I'm not mistaken, and I've seen quite a few pictures of the two of them hanging out backstage.

I can't speak about the Iommi situation with the Monkey copy, but Brian's original guitar was of course a one of a kind that he and his father had more or less pulled out of thin air. Getting an exact copy of that, in terms of things like getting the neck exactly the same (difficult in the days before CAD/CAM systems were available) or getting the tremolo system to balance the same as the original (I believe Brian scavenged the springs in the original tremolo system from a motorcycle saddle bag gizmo) can be tricky. There could have been any number of things that might have made Brian say, "This guitar doesn't feel the same as the original". You'll notice that to this very he still plays the original guitar on a regular basis, on stage, in the studio and so on, so maybe NOBODY has ever built anything he likes as much as the original Red Special. To my knowledge, he's only ever used the various copies as backups.

[WytchCrypt]

Yeah, I believe Brian actually guested on one of the 90's era Sabbath albums, if I'm not mistaken, and I've seen quite a few pictures of the two of them hanging out backstage.

I can't speak about the Iommi situation with the Monkey copy, but Brian's original guitar was of course a one of a kind that he and his father had more or less pulled out of thin air. Getting an exact copy of that, in terms of things like getting the neck exactly the same (difficult in the days before CAD/CAM systems were available) or getting the tremolo system to balance the same as the original (I believe Brian scavenged the springs in the original tremolo system from a motorcycle saddle bag gizmo) can be tricky. There could have been any number of things that might have made Brian say, "This guitar doesn't feel the same as the original". You'll notice that to this very he still plays the original guitar on a regular basis, on stage, in the studio and so on, so maybe NOBODY has ever built anything he likes as much as the original Red Special. To my knowledge, he's only ever used the various copies as backups.

I actually bought one of those mid 80's Guild Brian May signature models back in the day and it was awful...I dumped it a couple months later at a big loss for a used BC Rich Warlock that I loved and played for years. The design, workmanship and overall sound was very poor...it didn't even have the same vibrato bar design as Brian's but a Kahler locking tremolo instead. No wonder he never used this one...the only things it had in common with Brian's Red Special is that it was red, had a similar shape and 3 pickups you could independently turn on/off. Here's a really detailed review of this oddity: https://www.gad.net/Blog/2019/03/19/...rian-may-bhm1/